EvaUnit02 on 10/9/2011 at 17:19
WTF is a "wRPG"? Western RPG, I assume? I'd never seen the acronym before now.
nicked on 10/9/2011 at 18:49
Yeah I'd have gone with cRPG, but I also assumed it stood for Western.
Matthew on 10/9/2011 at 18:50
Quote Posted by dexterward
break immersion
Gngngngngng
UnrelatedComa on 10/9/2011 at 22:26
my younger gamingz... let me show you them -
when i first played BG1 it had just come out, i was hardcore into PC gaming only (hated consoles), and i was younger than i am now. so when i came at this game that had a gigantic character sheet filled with info that i couldnt decipher "lower or higher thac0? lower or higher AC?" i came up with some crazy ideas.
one crazy idea i came up with is when i noticed my AC on the inventory screen was the same number as my reputation on the character sheet. when i talked to an NPC, that i later found was of no consequence, who told me that wearing fancy armor would get you killed by bandits because of an iron shortage i had a brilliant idea - the number in my inventory was a quick reference to popularity and taking the armor off before talking to people would net better results.
luckily i only did this for a few hours and probably only died a few times because shortly after there was a pretty easy quest that increased your rep. cross referencing my inventory screen with the character sheet noted no changes on the character sheet so my idea was obviously flawed. come to find out that putting on armor lowers your AC, not your rep, and that lower AC is better and that the NPC i talked to was just there for flavor. *shrug*
i wasnt reviled by the idea i had wasted time or made my life harder by coming to the wrong conclusion. i appreciated the depth of the game and had figured out lower AC = better and also learned how to spot flavor NPCs. in essence a learning experience.
n'al you talk and argue about BG the exact same way my friend does about anything. id swear he was on here posting if i didnt know he hates PC gaming. to put it bluntly though you feel entitled to some sort of warning when you fuck up. you vehemently describe it as a flaw in the game but in actuality its just the depth of the lore. its not a flaw that theres so many things to learn in the game, or outside of it. it makes up a huge reason that the game is so good. its built on a vast and expansive universe with a ton of info.
the game doesnt spoon feed you "press this button for x ending" type info before, during, and after every quest. get over it.
Matthew on 10/9/2011 at 22:35
I don't think that's entirely the same thing as he was talking about. But hey, you generalise away if it helps your argument.
Dresden on 10/9/2011 at 23:39
You're missing the point though. BG1 was difficult for all the wrong reasons. Mostly the fault of AD&D's steep learning curve. Whether you like console or PC more has no bearing on the matter. AD&D worked better as a tabletop game because newbies had the luxury of having a friend walk them through things the first time around. BG1 just throws you into the fray.
And you can't expect people to RTFM when it's 150 pages long. That's what so great about today's games. Putting the manual inside the game in one form or another is standard.
Thirith on 10/9/2011 at 23:56
@UnrelatedComa: Will you ever stop putting up strawmen and actually address what's been said, or will you continue with your "You kids just want instant gratification arglebargle" trip? If so, please let me know now so I can stop listening.
The problem mentioned here with BG1 isn't that it expects you to read, or that it expects you to think. It's that the game expects you to *guess* (at least in some respects), and that is bad design, by and large.
june gloom on 11/9/2011 at 00:14
Good lord UnrelatedComa may be one of the more verbose and less interesting trolls we've had in a while.
Phatose on 11/9/2011 at 03:59
There's more to it then just the rules being obscure or poorly explained. The problem is that the rules were never actually intended for computer-run games in the first place. The 2nd edition AD&D DM guide was quite clear that the rules were meant as guidelines, not cast in stone, and that the DM could and should override any rule at any time to improve the fun of the game.
Any dungeon master who routinely allowed low level player characters to be killed by a single bad die roll would very quickly discover no one would play with them anymore. Situations like instant death via magic missile at level 1 are very common in the beginning of BG1, but would not happen in a PnP game because the DM would not allow that if they wanted to have players come back.
It's a ruthless implementation of rules that were intended to be run by a human who could alter them to ensure that everybody was having fun. Of course it's going to end up frustrating - the DM who was supposed to keep it from becoming frustrating has been removed.
UnrelatedComa on 11/9/2011 at 07:05
Quote Posted by Matthew
I don't think that's entirely the same thing as he was talking about. But hey, you generalise away if it helps your argument.
i might. what was your contribution? oh the "gngngngn". thanks for that one.
Quote Posted by Dresden
You're missing the point though. BG1 was difficult for all the wrong reasons.
no i see that point being brought up over and over again. i still dont think its valid.
Quote Posted by Thirith
@UnrelatedComa: Will you ever stop putting up strawmen and actually address what's been said, or will you continue with your "You kids just want instant gratification arglebargle" trip? If so, please let me know now so I can stop listening.
ive addressed whats been said, i just figured everyone was tired of talking about the silver dragon. lol. feel free to bring up some more of the alleged "myriad" of reasons that BG1 was "flawed".
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Good lord UnrelatedComa may be one of the more verbose and less interesting trolls we've had in a while.
ill be here all week folks.
has anyone on the "its too hard" team stopped to consider the fact youre arguing a moot point? BG saga is one of the most successful rpgs ever made and brought droves of new players to rpg gaming. using the DnD rules they made a star wars rpg that also went on to be wildly successful and highly lauded.
one of the more entertaining quotes from the other thread was someone trying to put it in the perspective of new players and warning that "lack of information before decision making could drive new players away". srsly? an rpg thats over a decade old, became one of the most popular series ever, and paved the way for other wrpgs might be too hard and drive players away in spite of the fact that historically it did the complete opposite.... thats insanity! who are you people? lol
