N'Al on 11/9/2011 at 07:28
Now I know why dethtoll loves these airplane pics so much.
Vernon on 11/9/2011 at 08:13
I think this one's a blimp job
Papy on 11/9/2011 at 08:28
Quote Posted by Thirith
The problem with especially the first
Baldur's Gate isn't so much that it's challenging and uses an old-fashioned combat system - it's that the game itself isn't particularly good at providing feedback or other hints that help you understand why you're being clobbered by three kobolds armed with rickety bows and arrows.
Unless you want games to provide visual feedbacks (like different animations depending on fatigue, wound and pain for every monsters) or lengthy descriptions about every actions, the only way to have this feedback would be with displaying lots of numbers. The "problem" with that is the RPG becomes too much of a mathematical game.
Anyway, lack of feedback is a problem with most games, not only CRPG. I mean there is rarely any kind of feedback about the damages you are doing in an FPS. You just shoot until the enemy dies and you more or less learn what you need to do with trials and errors.
Quote Posted by icemann
A significantly larger percentage of people play video games compared to back then. And so as a result the needs and expectations have changed, hence why you don't find too many hardcore western rpg games these days.
I don't think that's true. More people doesn't mean less hardcore people (in absolute numbers). In fact, my guess is there are more hardcore players now than there ever was. If the market changed, I think it's more because the video game industry was taken over by MBA who want to adapt the market to what they know instead of adapting their products to what their customers want.
Quote Posted by UnrelatedComa
i couldnt decipher "lower or higher thac0? lower or higher AC?" i came up with some crazy ideas.
The manual is explicit about what the THAC0 is. I understand that it was a somewhat big manual, but if you thought it was too big, maybe it should have been a clue that the game was not for you.
Quote Posted by Dresden
You're missing the point though. BG1 was difficult for all the wrong reasons. Mostly the fault of AD&D's steep learning curve. Whether you like console or PC more has no bearing on the matter. AD&D worked better as a tabletop game because newbies had the luxury of having a friend walk them through things the first time around. BG1 just throws you into the fray.
The opposite argument being that since the computer takes care of all the rules, you don't need a friend to walk you through them and there are very little things to learn compared to playing a real RPG.
Quote Posted by Dresden
And you can't expect people to RTFM when it's 150 pages long.
Why not? I mean I understand that some people just want a dumb and easy pastime, but then I'd say that a hardcore RPG is not for them.
Quote Posted by Phatose
There's more to it then just the rules being obscure or poorly explained. The problem is that the rules were never actually intended for computer-run games in the first place. The 2nd edition AD&D DM guide was quite clear that the rules were meant as guidelines, not cast in stone, and that the DM could and should override any rule at any time to improve the fun of the game.
Actually, I'd say most of the rules of AD&D were to be overridden if necessary because they were not that good for a role playing game. They were more about tactical gameplay, which was not the goal of AD&D. On the other hand, CRPG were the pure result of AD&D rules. Because of that, AD&D rules were perfectly adapted to CRPG.
I'll use a false argument used by some religious people to make you understand what I mean. The argument is that God necessarily exists because otherwise the probability would be too low for the Earth to be at a good position to support life, for the atmosphere to be perfect for us, and a lot of other things like that. But of course, their conclusion is wrong. The fact is we do exist and we are the way we are because the Earth is at that position and because the atmosphere is like it is. It's not the Earth and the atmosphere which are perfect for us, it's us who are perfect for them.
CRPG are the way they are because they were made perfect for AD&D rules.
UnrelatedComa on 11/9/2011 at 08:47
Quote Posted by Papy
The manual is explicit about what the THAC0 is. I understand that it was a somewhat big manual, but if you thought it was too big, maybe it should have been a clue that the game was not for you.
well in my case i never had a manual. i was given just the cds by someone who found the game wasnt for them. turned out the game was very much for me though as i loved everything about it from the gameplay to the atmosphere to the story. deciphered everything i needed to know from multiple play throughs. even took 2 characters all the way through both games and both expansions, in addition to multiple other characters started on a whim.
june gloom on 11/9/2011 at 08:54
Quote Posted by Papy
I don't think that's true. More people doesn't mean less hardcore people (in absolute numbers). In fact, my guess is there are more hardcore players now than there ever was. If the market changed, I think it's more because the video game industry was taken over by MBA who want to adapt the market to what they know instead of adapting their products to what their customers want.
This is like, Fox News level inaccurate (and, while I'm at it, Fox News level delusional and self-serving.) The industry changed because dropping prices of consoles (and PCs) and the rise of mobile phone gaming has made gaming more accessible to more people. Thus, gaming design conventions have been shifted towards not alienating the player with stupid bullshit like armor falling off because you were trying to kick a wolf to death because the railroad spike you were trying to use broke after the gun failed to hit anything point blank and ran out of ammo.
Are there more hardcore gamers? Maybe, but only because there's more gamers overall, and some of them actually give a shit enough to explore what's available beyond what's offered on XBL Arcade or the app store.
UnrelatedComa on 11/9/2011 at 08:59
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Thus, gaming design conventions have been shifted towards not alienating the player with stupid bullshit like armor falling off because you were trying to kick a wolf to death because the railroad spike you were trying to use broke after the gun failed to hit anything point blank and ran out of ammo.
sounds like youre playing Arcanum: of steamworks and magicka obscura.
Thirith on 11/9/2011 at 10:27
Quote Posted by UnrelatedComa
ive addressed whats been said, i just figured everyone was tired of talking about the silver dragon. lol. feel free to bring up some more of the alleged "myriad" of reasons that BG1 was "flawed".
As I said: strawman. Did anyone talk about "myriad" of reasons that
Baldur's Gate was flawed? No. They said that it is frustrating for newbies because it doesn't explain how it works very well. Combat is a big issue here - the game suggests that you can create any kind of character/party you wish, but with builds that are too different from fighter/fighter/mage/cleric (or whatever works best) you're screwed as someone new to D&D. Without an understanding of ranged vs. close combat, you'll die over and over again - and the game neither gives you enough feedback nor enough of an indication for you to learn these things. These are things the game could do much better.
As Dresden and Phatose suggest, a DM who kills off his players' level 1 characters *because they don't know yet how the system works* (and I'm not talking about simple mechanics - I'm talking about the implications of these mechanics) will not have players for very long. I actually think the D&D system works pretty well on PCs - but a well designed game will ease you into how the system works. It'll use those early encounters against kobolds and the like to teach you. That's what
Baldur's Gate didn't do particularly well.
Does that make it a failure in terms of game design? Obviously not. It does constitute a flaw, though - and it was as much of a flaw back then as it is now. Some gamers learned how to play the game well anyway. Some gave up. Some simply switched to the easiest difficulty and decided that fights were the annoying pauses between the good bits. But due to the dodgy learning curve there were definitely more people in the latter two groups than there ought to have been.
june gloom on 11/9/2011 at 10:59
Quote Posted by UnrelatedComa
sounds like youre playing Arcanum: of steamworks and magicka obscura.
I
was. Then I wasn't, anymore.
Matthew on 11/9/2011 at 11:03
Quote Posted by UnrelatedComa
i might. what was your contribution? oh the "gngngngn". thanks for that one.
As I've said my piece about 'immersion' in gaming several times over many years on these threads, I didn't really see the need to rehash it in this thread other than to obliquely point to it. But I'm not about to feed the troll any further, so don't let me stop you carrying on being pointless.
dexterward on 11/9/2011 at 12:17
So the thread mutated into "Unrelated Coma vs the rest of the board"? Surprise.
I`d like to revisit it in 2024, when some "newcomer" will be airing his grievances about DE:HR`s inaccessibility..."Whaddaya mean I have to play a tutorial? instead this shit being explained on my implant already? Fuck this broken game, they could do better".
There`s two fundamental things in this whole argument:
1) like I said before and what only icemann seems to grasp, this game was made in different times, for (slightly) different audience and was already streamlined and made accessible from previous generation of Rpgs. Nah, that`s no good, they had to go further...but further where?
2) I think you`re actually complaining about the whole genre of Rpgs with tactical combat in them. Or maybe the whole strategy genre because most of your points could be applied there too. (Try playing Harpoon without manual) If that`s the case then there`s Nox on GOG sale...please enjoy that and leave these games to cavemen who have no trouble with micromanaging or reading manuals (which I never in fact did - ok I had the background but it is not rocket surgery to figure these systems out, really. Yeah - Arcanum, that`s a different kettle of goblins)
It seems to be the same thing as in Grimrock thread...so a bunch of people is stoked for an old-school game only to be instantly told noooooooooo! your doing it wrong! it is only :dread: Nostalgia :dread: messing wit`cha! Because if I don`t like drawing maps or carefully positioning my troops then you can not either.
Well, it`s ok If you don`t like these games - I have few genres/games I`m not a fan of either. But outside from maybe one post you won`t see me arguing in The Witcher thread about how ridiculous it`s combat is. So lots of folk seems to dig it, fine, I just go and play something else.
@Eva: wRpgs because if you put "tactical" before Rpgs or even cRpgs then we`re off to Japan.
Ok, this title sucks but I made it in a nanosecond and so on
@Matthew: yeah, I`m sorry that it`s not said 2024 yet and I don`t have the implant, so I can instantly search whole of TTLG for your take on immersion. I`ll start saving now.
(also if you actually read the post you`d see I put "could" in italics - so as to say I`m not totally serious - not a fan of dragging out "immersion" or similar tropes myself)
