Papy on 11/9/2011 at 12:37
Quote Posted by dethtoll
The industry changed because dropping prices of consoles (and PCs) and the rise of mobile phone gaming has made gaming more accessible to more people.
Obviously, we are not using the same time frame. I play video games since Pong, so when I talk about how the industry changed, I'm not talking only about what happened last year. For me, old school tactical RPG means Wizard's Crown. As Dexterward said, Baldur's Gate was already a more "accessible" game.
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Thus, gaming design conventions have been shifted towards not alienating the player with stupid bullshit like armor falling off...
"The player" doesn't exist. Some players love Farmville and will never play anything more "hardcore". Some players are into wargames they bought at Shrapnel Games and they will never play with a "dumb" mainstream game on a console. The fact is some player do love what you call "stupid bullshit" and removing this "bullshit" will only alienate him. So why did gaming design conventions shifted almost exclusively to fast food games?
Those new gaming conventions gave you BioShock instead of a true spiritual successor to System Shock 2. No inventory to manage, no permanent character choices bullshit, easy level design so the player don't get lost and a gameplay that he can't lose and where there is a Vita-chamber every five meters. That's what the new gaming conventions are about. Are you happy?
dexterward on 11/9/2011 at 12:53
Quote Posted by Papy
For me, old school tactical RPG means Wizard's Crown.
:thumb:
(actually I love Bioshock - but without pretending above issues don`t exist)
N'Al on 11/9/2011 at 13:22
Quote Posted by dexterward
(actually I love Bioshock - but without pretending above issues don`t exist)
So, how is this any different to me saying I love Baldur's Gate - but without pretending certain issues don't exist?
dexterward on 11/9/2011 at 14:20
How? Because I`d say Bioshock was too streamlined and you say BA was not streamlined enough?
Eh, anyway - I think you know that and are just cherry picking. Again, my only issue with you & Thirith was that you seem to demand illogical - that a game released last century and which was sort of already groundbreaking then - be even more accommodating, planning for some nonexistent audience from the future.
Since we love/like the game in question and regardless seem to be unable to agree/reach compromise on the subject, that`s / from me.
N'Al on 11/9/2011 at 14:35
Quote Posted by dexterward
How? Because I`d say Bioshock was too streamlined and you say BA was not streamlined enough?The reasoning behind why we're doing it may be different, yes; doesn't mean we're not doing the same thing, though. That's not cherry picking at all.
Quote Posted by dexterward
Again, my only issue with you & Thirith was that you seem to demand illogical - that a game released last century and which was sort of already groundbreaking then - be even more accommodating, planning for some nonexistent audience from the future.
We're not
demanding this from the game, though. We're saying: With hindsight, these are flaws in the game, and these
might turn off newcomers trying them out nowadays.
dexterward on 11/9/2011 at 14:52
Thing about Bioshock is they looked into the past, which is possible, thing with Bioware is they couldn`t look into the future further than they already did. - let`s just leave it, ok?
Quote Posted by N'Al
We're saying:
With hindsight, these are flaws in the game, and these
might turn off newcomers trying them out nowadays.
Something I can totally agree with, and if this is the said compromise I`ll shake on it.
N'Al on 11/9/2011 at 15:19
I was going to post that that isn't really a compromise; just what I've been saying all along. But then I thought this might get wrongly interpreted again, so I won't. ;)
Let's shake it, baby!
dexterward on 11/9/2011 at 15:42
And I`m glad you didn`t :P:thumb:
(am still gonna blow my own (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136823) sword (tx Maff!) and later erect a lil` one-post shrine to how things were before IE came & conquered - ...need to get it outta the system)
UnrelatedComa on 11/9/2011 at 19:19
Quote Posted by Thirith
As I said: strawman. Did anyone talk about "myriad" of reasons that
Baldur's Gate was flawed? No.
actually that was a direct quote of someone. probably not you though.
as for using whatever party you want - choosing a party thats not built around optimum ease of use comes with pitfalls. thats in every single game though. run around SnD on CoD with steady aim and second chance and see how well you do compared to a soundwhore ninja... anecdotally speaking i created a full thief party and managed through with only a couple fatalities. however using such a strange party i had to make drastic changes in combat tactics. *shrug*
with regards to dying instantly at level 1 - specifically at friendly arm in with magic missle - since so many people ran into that issue perhaps that was by design rather than a flaw. maybe they want you to know how gravely you could fuck up in the game. or maybe their intent was to kill imoen so you could rez a character for the first time at the shrine next door. quite a bit of speculation and rage surrounding one incident imo but w/e.
and the dodgy learning curve - in spite of how many people you "feel" the game alienated or drove away, historically it did the opposite and brought droves of new players to the scene.
Quote Posted by Matthew
As I've said my piece about 'immersion' in gaming several times over many years on these threads, I didn't really see the need to rehash it in this thread other than to obliquely point to it. But I'm not about to feed the troll any further, so don't let me stop you carrying on being pointless.
im not a proper troll so i havent spent hours researching all your posts. if you wouldnt mind reposting your immersion perspective id gladly read it.
Quote Posted by N'Al
We're not
demanding this from the game, though. We're saying: With hindsight, these are flaws in the game, and these
might turn off newcomers trying them out nowadays.
thats madness! what is the point in chiding such an old game for that? its akin to me saying "well the difficulty of ogre battle on SNES might turn off a new player these days".... new players these days arent starting where we started, theyre starting with uncharted and assassins creed and call of duty... theres no point in worrying about old games alienating them just how they view the new ones.
june gloom on 11/9/2011 at 19:20
Quote Posted by Papy
Obviously, we are not using the same time frame. I play video games since Pong, so when I talk about how the industry changed, I'm not talking only about what happened last year. For me, old school tactical RPG means Wizard's Crown. As Dexterward said, Baldur's Gate was already a more "accessible" game.
Except if you want to stretch the timeframe back to the beginning of video games the conversation becomes meaningless.
Quote:
"The player" doesn't exist.
ok
Quote:
The fact is some player do love what you call "stupid bullshit" and removing this "bullshit" will only alienate him. So why did gaming design conventions shifted almost exclusively to fast food games?
Because crazy people who like frustrating nonsense that adds nothing to the game have become a minority in this market?
Quote:
Those new gaming conventions gave you BioShock instead of a true spiritual successor to System Shock 2. No inventory to manage, no permanent character choices bullshit, easy level design so the player don't get lost and a gameplay that he can't lose and where there is a Vita-chamber every five meters. That's what the new gaming conventions are about. Are you happy?
Are we going to devolve into the YOU CAN HIT A BIG DADDY WITH A WRENCH AND RESPAWN AND DO IT AGAIN OVER AND OVER UNTIL HE DIES AND THAT MEANS THIS GAME HAS NO CHALLENGE argument again?
