Mobile Forums
Tactical wRPGs vs new school - by dexterward
View full version
Prev | Next
Papy on 11/9/2011 at 20:15
Quote Posted by N'Al
We're saying: With hindsight, these are flaws in the game, and these might turn off newcomers trying them out nowadays.

And we're saying : it is not possible to make a game which is both friendly to newcomers and interesting to veteran at the same time. With one-size-fits-all kind of game, you will always end up with a flawed game. Not the same flaws, but inevitably flawed nonetheless.


Quote Posted by dethtoll
Except if you want to stretch the timeframe back to the beginning of video games the conversation becomes meaningless.

I fail to see why. I thought the discussion was about modern vs old school, not only about modern gameplay vs slightly less modern gameplay.

Quote Posted by dethtoll
Because crazy people who like frustrating nonsense that adds nothing to the game have become a minority in this market?

I remember a joke about the speed at which people drive their car. Anyone who drives more slowly than you is a moron; and anyone who drives faster than you is crazy. The thing is the people who love what you call "frustrating nonsense" have not become a minority, they always were a minority. Also, I'm pretty sure that what you think is a good thing in a game will be called "frustrating nonsense" by a 12 years old (or a 60 years old) somewhere.

Quote Posted by dethtoll
Are we going to devolve into the YOU CAN HIT A BIG DADDY WITH A WRENCH AND RESPAWN AND DO IT AGAIN OVER AND OVER UNTIL HE DIES AND THAT MEANS THIS GAME HAS NO CHALLENGE argument again?

No, BioShock was only an example of what it means for games to become "accessible". I used it because so many people love to hate this game here, which made the argument easier for me.
Sulphur on 11/9/2011 at 21:43
Quote Posted by dexterward
Demon's Souls :cool:


Hardly the right example to use, and even if it were, it'd be the exception that proved the rule.

Besides all that, it's not arcane or exotic or obtuse in any of its systems, just really tough but well-executed. There's a difference between obfuscating feedback to make a game difficult, and letting the player understand how they fucked up when they fuck up.
Dresden on 11/9/2011 at 22:04
People like challenging games, they just don't like it when they don't know why the hell they are losing.

Witcher 2 is also a good example. Normal is harder than other games' Normal setting but you can try harder next time, using your abilities better. Demon's Souls is a lot like that from what I've heard.
Papy on 11/9/2011 at 22:13
Quote Posted by Sulphur
There's a difference between obfuscating feedback to make a game difficult, and letting the player understand how they fucked up when they fuck up.

I didn't like Baldur's Gate and so didn't play for long with it, but I don't remember that game as using obfuscation to make the game difficult. I took a look at my old manual and I can tell you that an ability score of 17 in Strength will give the character a +1 hit and damage adjustment, a weight allowance of 170 and a bashing chance of success of 18%. I can also tell you that a Leather armor has an armor class of 8, with +2 modifier against piercing weapons. I'm not sure what rules are hidden in this game since I think all rolls of dice could be seen in the game.

In fact, since most old school CRPG I played were like that, I'd say obfuscation and lack of feedbacks is a characteristic of modern gaming.
Sulphur on 11/9/2011 at 22:19
The problem there is having to refer to the manual to figure out all those things when you're supposed to be playing the game on the computer which doesn't have much of an introduction to them, the concepts, or the terms to begin with. You might be used to them, but to someone who hasn't played an AD&D game before, it's not just slightly counter-intuitive at first, it's borderline ridiculous.

N'Al had a point, where combat encounter feedback was relegated to a tiny text box with lines and lines of text scrolling away that was pretty easy to miss. And he's right, it was, and looked relatively unimportant sitting there at the bottom of the interface while spells and projectiles were being slung across the screen.
dexterward on 11/9/2011 at 22:21
Quote Posted by Sulphur
Hardly the right example to use


Why?

Quote:
it'd be the exception that proved the rule.


Heh, that old chestnut. I`d enjoy your explanation on how exactly exceptions prove the rule, only if this wasn`t already established to be a misinterpretation of an old saying... a handy thing to have in an argument. Hell, used it many times myself (knowing i`m really bullshitting)

Quote:

Besides all that, it's not arcane or exotic or obtuse in any of its systems, just really tough but well-executed. There's a difference between obfuscating feedback to make a game difficult, and letting the player understand how they fucked up when they fuck up.


I didn`t use it as an example in AD&D branch of this discussion but as response to dethtoll`s comment. But while we`re at it, like said before, these tactical RPG s are only exotic or obtuse when you are mentally too lazy to try and make an effort to understand what`s going on. But if Demon`s Souls or Harpoon I used earlier are too exotic, then is old and tired Civilization/A Centauri good enough? Please try and get into this without doing some reading or actually just thinking.

Quote:
And he's right, it was, and looked relatively unimportant sitting there at the bottom of the interface while spells and projectiles were being slung across the screen.


This is the main problem with BG games - that confusion when someone might try playing that game without PAUSING on mostly everything.
UnrelatedComa on 11/9/2011 at 22:44
Quote Posted by Sulphur
N'Al had a point, where combat encounter feedback was relegated to a tiny text box with lines and lines of text scrolling away that was pretty easy to miss. And he's right, it was, and looked relatively unimportant sitting there at the bottom of the interface while spells and projectiles were being slung across the screen.


space bar = pause

Quote Posted by dexterward
Heh, that old chestnut. I`d enjoy your explanation on how exactly exceptions prove the rule, only if this wasn`t already established to be a misinterpretation of an old saying... a handy thing to have in an argument. Hell, used it many times myself (knowing i`m really bullshitting)


hes spot on saying it. i dont recall a game in recent years thats been described by everyone in various synonyms of a single word, that word being "difficult", and garner even a fraction of the success that Demons Souls had.

in fact id go so far as to say i dont think ive ever heard of a game being so fully identified with the concept of being difficult the way demons souls is. im drawing a blank for that category.
Papy on 11/9/2011 at 23:04
Quote Posted by Sulphur
You might be used to them, but to someone who hasn't played an AD&D game before, it's not just slightly counter-intuitive at first, it's borderline ridiculous.

Ridiculous? I don't know, the first time I played a D&D game, I didn't find those rules ridiculous. Simplistic and not realistic, but that was not enough to make me view them as "ridiculous". In the end, they were just the rules of the game, nothing more.

Anyway my point is that a game cannot be for everyone. Either you target newcomers with a simplistic game (The Legend of Zelda), or you target veterans with a deep and complex game (Wizard's Crown). A newcomers will never be able to understand a deep and complex game, no matter how good the introduction is, and a veteran will never find a simplistic game satisfying.

And, out of curiosity, what is so wrong with having to read a manual to learn how to play a game before actually playing it? Why video games should always be fast food that you order and eat two minutes later?
dexterward on 11/9/2011 at 23:10
Quote Posted by UnrelatedComa
s
hes spot on saying it. i dont recall a game in recent years thats been described by everyone in various synonyms of a single word, that word being "difficult", and garner even a fraction of the success that Demons Souls had.


Quote:
I didn`t use it as an example in AD&D branch of this discussion but as response to dethtoll`s comment


It helps to read the comment, thread even. You might also find :

Quote:
Sony VP of international software Y. Kim later admitted that it was a "mistake" to pass on the game, instead allowing Atlus to publish it, initially due to concerns over its difficulty and unusual design decisions


If you can`t think of any similar game, you haven`t played many Japanese games - tough-but-fair is rather common theme there.
Prev | Next
Back to Forum