Sulphur on 11/9/2011 at 23:14
Quote Posted by dexterward
Why?
Because it's not 'frustrating nonsense' as per dethtoll's quote that you were replying to? It's easily understandable on a nearly intuitive level when you play it. And it's never
frustrating. Read the reviews, everyone says it's difficult but always fair to the player.
Quote:
Heh, that old chestnut. I`d enjoy your explanation on how exactly exceptions prove the rule, only if this wasn`t already established to be a misinterpretation of an old saying... a handy thing to have in an argument. Hell, used it many times myself (knowing i`m really bullshitting)
I'm not you, though. I don't really give a toss about the origin of the term; the point is, people don't have the patience for the complexities and vagaries of old school role-playing these days and their attendant stat tables and excel sheet workouts - that's easily provable by just sitting back and looking at today's western RPG.
The signs of times are staring you in the face. Complex games with bonkers mechanics are rare to find today and even most of the ones that were have been steadily streamlined - all you have to do is chart the course from Baldur's Gate to Mass Effect 2 if you want the most obvious example.
Quote:
I didn`t use it as an example in AD&D branch of this discussion but as response to dethtoll`s comment. But while we`re at it, like said before, these tactical RPG s are only exotic or obtuse when you are mentally too lazy to try and make an effort to understand what`s going on.
But if Demon`s Souls or Harpoon I used earlier too exotic, then is old and tired Civilization/A Centauri good enough? Please try and get into this without doing some reading or actually just thinking.
'Mental laziness' is a great term to use when you know where to use it. Civilization and AC were great, but they're built mostly around common sense - Civ IV has a great tutorial that outlines everything you need to know. It's got a wealth of things to worry about, but the key is they're all instantly relatable and easy to learn and deal with,
and in the game. I haven't played Civ V, but I'm guessing it's even more streamlined and easier to handle today.
And then, on the other hand, there's AD&D and its manuals and the games that assume you're well-versed in the lingo. I'm all for engaging my brain, but I don't need to deal with those layers of obfuscation to work out the probability of whether I can hit something with something by working out what its THAC0 is, and then work out how much damage I can inflict depending on its armour class, my weapon's stats, and my weapon's additional damage modifiers.
I didn't mind it when I was a teenager, but these days my patience with a system that abstracts a glorified damage model's math into geek terminology and dice that forces me to work out various variables to figure out whether my wooden stick of +1 Propensity to Incorrectly Disburse your Wizard Loan can hit a little green man in assless leather chaps is very, very low.
But my intolerance of AD&D's needlessly complicated
presentation and
execution of what are, in essence, simple ideas is irrelevant anyway. People generally don't enjoy complicated games that require huge hardbound manuals in general; the ones that do are masochistic geeks who'd probably get a hardon from poring over hundreds of stat tables and monster manual descriptions, never mind actually playing the game. If my distaste of a game and its variegated systems prevents me from adapting my play style to it, because it's too boring and too much when I've come back home and just want something easier to play in the time I have left -- if that means that I'm mentally lazy, then so be it.
There are only so many hours in a day, after all.
UnrelatedComa on 11/9/2011 at 23:44
Quote Posted by dexterward
If you can`t think of any similar game, you haven`t played many Japanese games - tough-but-fair is rather common theme there.
srsly?
technically i said a game that if its ever brought up in a conversation the first thing everyone says is "its so hard" and also happened to win game of the year... your retort is "JAPAN! :mad:"
wether youre talking straight up, non translated, Japan only rpgs or a north American port i still doubt you can argue it reached the same level of success. even casual gamers know demons souls and its documented that north America buys more games than Japan or europe in the console market.
dexterward on 11/9/2011 at 23:53
Quote Posted by Sulphur
Because it's not 'frustrating nonsense' as per dethtoll's quote that you were replying to? It's easily understandable on a nearly intuitive level when you play it. And it's never
frustrating. Read the reviews, everyone says it's difficult but always fair to the player.
It was about Bioshock being streamlined and bigger general narrative that happens in gaming these days. Which is making games "easier" and "more accessible" Which usually leads to simply dumbing them down - vide Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 2 that you handily quote.
I posted Demon`s Souls as a example of a game that while considered by Sony itself too weird, difficult and with "unusual design" - exactly the things dethtolls "crazy people" were praising and defending for years. Do you really think I haven`t read the reviews? (It is a rhetorical question, tx.)
Quote:
I don't really give a toss about the origin of the term
Oh dear, but it`s not about some scholar "origin" it`s just that it straight up doesn`t work. You might as well say "buttery butt" 10 times. Devil`s Dictionary:
"The exception proves the rule" is an expression constantly upon the lips of the ignorant, who parrot it from one another with never a thought of its absurdity. In the Latin, Exceptio probat regulam means that the exception tests the rule, puts it to the proof, not confirms it. The malefactor who drew the meaning from this excellent dictum and substituted a contrary one of his own exerted an evil power which appears to be immortal."
CiV 4? I thought we were about older games. There is not much "feedback" or tutorials in Colonization.
Quote:
the point is, people don't have the patience for the complexities and vagaries of old school role-playing these days
This - and the rest - of your argument is completely unnecessary. Trying to paint me & similar types into fuddy-duddy bearded stuck-ups wielding the mandatory +1 Sword of Cliche might go down well with the gallery, but is simply untrue. Well, at least in my case - and that is because I play & enjoy most of the current crop of RPGs. I also don`t go around and preach to people these new uns are evil and the only true way is the olden one (some do, admittedly)
Like I said before - my only beef is with people who do the contrary and every time something like Grimrock comes up, they barge in and explain that you`re not really enjoying it - you`re stuck in some nostalgia fantasy and that game sucks. Well, thanks guys, but we don`t really need rescuing - happy there, ta da! And if it is so hard to comprehend you can participate in both -modern & old - worlds, than that is too bad - but nothing I can explain to anyone or argue about.
dexterward on 11/9/2011 at 23:59
@unrelated coma
I like the way you basically quote everything I said by posting that very Wiki entry and perhaps you truly are a troll :)
In any case, if you`re still struggling, Bayonetta might give you some new field for misinterpretation.
Papy on 12/9/2011 at 00:08
Quote Posted by Sulphur
people don't have the patience for the complexities and vagaries of old school role-playing these days
So you think the human species changed or something?
I remember one of my French class in high school. I had the chance of having a very demanding teacher. We were doing a lot more than the official government requirements. We had to read 3000 pages of novels, a few essays, we had to read one monthly magazine and one newspaper regularly (and there were controls to make sure we did), we had to do poetry and write small text about current news to learn how to express our opinions... And the thing is everyone was more or less able to do it.
But then, my teacher got seriously sick and we had a substitute for the rest of the year. The substitute was appalled by all we had to do and immediately cut everything. The program was a few novels (I don't remember how many exactly, but we all already read more than what was required) and one newspaper only, free form poetry with no rhymes instead of mandatory alexandrine with two syllable rhymes... So she went with the program. And the amusing things is that grades did not get better. In fact, they generally got worse.
You say people do not have the patience for complex games nowadays? I say bullshit. You are like this condescending substitute who thought we were all idiots. What changed is not people, it's how the industry consider people.
Edit : Civilization was built around common sense? Really? Do you really want me to make a list of all the things ridiculous in this game?
june gloom on 12/9/2011 at 00:24
Quote Posted by Papy
You say people do not have the patience for complex games nowadays? I say bullshit.
They don't. And to be honest, most people never did. Why do you think there were so few gamers back in the day? Because by and large, most of them couldn't be fucking bothered.
Quote:
You are like this condescending substitute who thought we were all idiots.
Have you even seen your posts lately? You're just as guilty.
UnrelatedComa on 12/9/2011 at 03:35
Quote Posted by dexterward
@unrelated coma
I like the way you basically quote everything I said by posting that very Wiki entry and perhaps you truly are a troll :)
In any case, if you`re still struggling, Bayonetta might give you some new field for misinterpretation.
someone said demons souls is an exception, i concurred, you posted a wiki that didnt disprove this fact, you post an unintelligible first sentence and then bring up a hack and slash game.
cool story bro.
Papy on 12/9/2011 at 04:12
Quote Posted by dethtoll
They don't. And to be honest, most people never did
I agree. Most people never read books either. Most people eat at McDonald's or other fast food restaurants. Most people who go to theaters are perfectly happy with mindless summer blockbusters and certainly don't want to see an intellectual movie. But most doesn't mean all people. More importantly, what most people like doesn't define what is "good". Let's be honest, most of the time, what is popular is simply the result of a lack of culture.
I remember Levine when he said that he wanted to make BioShock a gateway to other more complex games. He said he believed most people would love a game like SS2, they only needed intermediary steps (or something like that) to get there. I agree with him. Like with literature or music, people need knowledge in video games to appreciate more elaborate things and that's something a lot of modern gamers lack.
Like dexterward, I'm not a "fuddy-duddy bearded stuck-ups". BioShock was "dumbed down" compared to SS2, there's no discussion about it, but I still loved it nonetheless. In fact, I loved it more than SS2. Also, I'm now older and I don't have the time nor the interest for long games. I'm certainly not the one who will complain when a game is only 10 hours long. In fact, I prefer games which are short. I play Dance Central on my X-Box, Wii Fit when I go visit my sister and I find them fun (yes, I find Wii Fit fun). On my small Steam library there are games like Osmos and 7 Wonders.
On the other hand, because I have some video games culture, I also like games which are more serious. There is SpaceChem on my Steam Library. I used to play with Falcon 4 and Grand Prix (I even did a few full races with friends in a LAN). On my X-Box I have Virtua Fighter, and I did play it in a very hardcore style. I believe video games can be more than just superficial pastimes and the same way I'm willing to spend two hours in the kitchen to prepare a good meal instead of just ordering a pizza on the phone, I'm willing to invest a bit of time thinking or reading a manual in order to appreciate a game with more substance.
The problem I have is that finding those more serious game is now more and more difficult, particularly when it comes to RPG. As I said, I don't see how it could possible to make a game both accessible and deep at the same time. I don't see how it could be possible to put the equivalent of several hundred of hours of experience into a one hour tutorial. Unfortunately, it looks to me as if developers can't accept this simple fact and they try all sorts of tricks to overcome it... and always fail.
First, it was said that Baldur's Gate was not providing feedbacks. That's simply not true. Then the argument was that it was not obvious enough. Again, I think it's a wrong argument. Of course, if the player doesn't care and doesn't want to know why he gets his ass kicked, then the game won't display a pop-up saying "hey, you shouldn't send your mage in hand-to-hand combat, let me move it back for you". But is that a flaw? I mean isn't there a part of responsibility for the player to actually play the game by himself and to try to at least read the description of what all those numbers mean? Then it was said that all those numbers are too complex and that a player should not have to read a manual. Well... First, reading in a manual is faster than playing a long and boring tutorial. Second, RPGs are not chess. "Depth" in an RPG is not possible without complexity.
To me, although Baldur's Gate was made more accessible, it still was not a game for newcomers. It was not flawed (at least not because of it's complexity), it was just targeted at a particular group of people. That's really all there is to say about it. So the question is quite simple : is it acceptable to make a game which exclude a part of the market because it is too complex for newcomers? Or should we say "too bad if the experienced gamer is bored with the game, what's important is that everyone can play and finish it and because of that we'll only make simplistic or hand-holding games".
Oh and yes I have a condescending style. Because of human nature, it's best to emotionally dominate your opponent in a debate to make sure he's forced to use intelligence instead of manipulation. If you don't do that, the discussion will end up with ad hominem arguments.
june gloom on 12/9/2011 at 06:08
I don't even know what to say to that. Your last paragraph is basically telling me this conversation isn't worth carrying on.
N'Al on 12/9/2011 at 08:21
Quote Posted by dexterward
This is the main problem with BG games - that confusion when someone might try playing that game without PAUSING on mostly everything.
Quote Posted by UnrelatedComa
space bar = pause
I know I said I wouldn't really indulge you any more, but how can I not when you go out of your way to
deliberately misconstrue what I say simply to further your own ends? Where
on earth did I - or anyone else, for that matter - ever mention I was playing the IE games without regularly pausing (or even talking about other people playing them without pausing)? I was using the space bar pretty much non-stop throughout most of the battles in the games, especially the big mage battles in BG2.
Yes, battle information is available to you in all the IE games, but it's hidden away in a text box on the bottom of the screen as opposed to being present on the main screen, easily available. It's not like I didn't mention this earlier:
Quote Posted by myself
I'd say more like hidden away at the bottom of the screen for you to scroll through and find vs right there in the centre of the screen in your face easily available.
is the issue. Nothing more. Certainly nothing you
choose to interpret into what people are saying, even though they never did.
Seriously, I'm perfectly willing to have a discussion on this; I'm even willing to be convinced by/ accept/ concede to viewpoints different to my own (see, now THAT's learning!)*, but in order for that to happen the discussion has to occur on the same level. Consistently pulling strawmen just to try and prove your counterpoint is simply not going to work.
I'm done with this.
* I fully understand Papy's point here, for example:
Quote Posted by Papy
it is not possible to make a game which is both friendly to newcomers and interesting to veteran at the same time. With one-size-fits-all kind of game, you will always end up with a flawed game. Not the same flaws, but inevitably flawed nonetheless.
I don't necessarily agree with it, but I can certainly see where he's coming from.
