UnrelatedComa on 12/9/2011 at 08:53
Quote Posted by N'Al
Consistently pulling strawmen just to try and prove your counterpoint is simply not going to work.
actually we werent responding to something you said. Sulphur specifically stated that the text was "scrolling away" while "spells and projectiles were slung across the screen". both of those require the time to be moving for that to happen. if time is running youre at a disadvantage.
if someone says the time moves too fast that means they arent paused. so it wasnt a strawman. just friendly advice.
[Inigo]"you keep using that word. i dont think that word means what you think it means..."[/Inigo]
N'Al on 12/9/2011 at 09:00
(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) Straw man.
Quote:
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
This is something you're
definitely guilty of having done these past two days.
Chimpy Chompy on 12/9/2011 at 09:03
Quote Posted by Papy
Oh and yes I have a condescending style. Because of human nature, it's best to emotionally dominate your opponent in a debate
Maybe we should try and treat this as a friendly discussion and not a debate. Because an attitude like that is just more likely to get you ad hominems.
dexterward on 12/9/2011 at 10:50
If hijacking & misinterpreting my Demon`s Souls example (while using points I highlighted myself, lol) isn`t a strawman of a highest order than I don`t know what is. (I also preferred when strawman was just a horror movie trope instead of a word you can drop in any discussion at will)
N`Al- you`re overreacting, because as said, nobody referred to you or previous argument. And you`d also be surprised how many people came to BG from Diablo without any idea about pausing. Similarly to ME2 when this elementary function is reminded to you on a loading screen - for these who think they`re playing Gears Of War.
But seriously - if the feedback window is 'hidden away" by virtue of being on the bottom of the screen - a glance away + as we said it`s stretchable - then I rest my case.
Anyway, any and all discussion in this thread is now rather pointless, since the Gaming Police has arrived. Spread`em boy, you`re guilty of "being stuck in the 90`s" and being a fan of dead genres. Crazy folk shouldn`t be allowed to spread their contagious BS - regardless of the fact they don`t, really, and if they do it is in threads that are rather clearly signposted, vide Grimrock again.
And since this seems to be the theme supported by majority of posters on the North side of TTLG, I`m gonna remove myself from this board for the 2nd time. I have no interest in what Mastah Kokes once nicely described as: "valiantly going against the rest of the forum", and this seems to be the case here, not only on gaming issues but most political ones too.
(Frankly I much preferred Koki`s straight-up approach: keeping in the mood of: "You can`t play that!" he once described jRpgs as "by retards, for retards" .Simple & beautiful, unlike protracted paragraphs of text, basically boiling down to the same conclusion)
It`s just beyond ironic to find these attitudes prevalent on a board bearing the name of the codeshop that was once the champion of the leftfield, unusual and breaking conventions. Hey dethtoll (and you are a fella that`s perfectly capable of posting a reasonable, thoughtful stuff - sadly it usually only happens in your own threads) doesn`t that strike you funny, that recollection of a time when Thief was released and all the "mainstream" FPS players were like "WTF? Who are the crazy people playing this madness?"
UnrelatedC, heh, dude, I got a feeling you`ll do well here. Pretending you can`t read a simple sentence when it suits you, ignoring a body of an argument just to latch on one word - qualities highly regarded. I`m sure you love Steam & America too. Have fun!
(Wow, what a weekend eh? Got rid of a ComboToad & that unpopular knob/noob. Result! ;)
UnrelatedComa on 12/9/2011 at 13:32
Quote Posted by dexterward
UnrelatedC, heh, dude, I got a feeling you`ll do well here. Pretending you can`t read a simple sentence when it suits you, ignoring a body of an argument just to latch on one word - qualities highly regarded. I`m sure you love Steam & America too.
i honestly find your sentence confusing. i didnt quote your entire post, i quoted a phrase and directly addressed that phrase. the specific in this case being you bringing up *all* Japanese rpgs and equating them to demons souls. if you meant that i plagarised the wiki article and pretended its different i think you failed to grasp the general consensus on demons souls. feel free to elaborate on that or leave it as is.
you too! :D
icemann on 12/9/2011 at 14:12
I definitely wouldn't call Demon Souls the "typical" Japanese rpg.
I would say however that it is proof (through its huge popularity in an age where the vast majority of rpgs are dumbed down and made to appeal to casual players and people who aren't hardcore about games) that hardcore games still work just fine, its just that the industry itself that has changed as a direct result of more people playing games.
Take World of Warcraft for instance (*avoids projectiles*) this game was VERY hardcore when it started off as most gamers (especially mmo players) were more your hardcore variety. Then by the time of the 3rd expansion the game was made ALOT easier to better accommodate casual gamers. For me that was the point where the game started to slowly get worse. But that's a matter of opinion.
So to sum things up, I think hardcore rpgs (whether they be PC or console) would work just fine present day, but it is the industry itself that assumes that they wont + will = less money and so don't do them as often anymore.
We all are lucky however in that enough hardcore rpgs have been released by this point in time, that we'll be busy till we're 50 years old till we've played all of them.
Matthew on 12/9/2011 at 14:25
Quote Posted by icemann
enough hardcore rpgs have been released by this point in time, that we'll be busy till we're 50 years old till we've
played all of them gotten off level one.
:(
Thirith on 12/9/2011 at 14:28
Old school doesn't have to equal steep learning curve, though. (And while I think that they could've done a better job with the Baldur's Gate era D&D games, they've still got less steep a learning curve than, say, Wizardry VIII.) It's a rare art to design good tutorials and game progression that introduce you to the game's features in a way that let's you learn and practice the necessary skills before tearing you limb from limb. Not seeming random is a big thing in this respect. Even though D&D is based on dice throws, so there is a random element, games based on the system should ideally start off by saying more than, "Missed, eh? Now you're dead. Obviously you're doing something wrong, but I won't give you a hint."
I haven't played them in a while, but I always felt that the Civilization games (at least from Civ III onwards) had a good learning curve. You could automatise a number of things and first understand how they worked by watching the computer use them; then you could deactivate the autopilot bit by bit, taking on more and more control. Especially with games featuring tactical combat, I'd find a limited version of this quite useful.
Sulphur on 12/9/2011 at 19:18
Quote Posted by Papy
So you think the human species changed or something?
I say you're a minority, and always have been, just like the people who play pen and paper AD&D, and you know what? You
are. Welcome to the world of mainstream consolisation where all the 'transparent' stats you know and love have been stripped away from your experience in favour of putting it behind the scenes, with the rest of probability theory, which is arguably where it belonged in the first place.
Quote:
Edit : Civilization was built around common sense? Really? Do you really want me to make a list of all the things ridiculous in this game?
It certainly makes more sense to my mind than not being able to wield a Small Staff of Prolapsed Uterus +1 because I'm playing a Tiefling or whatever other arbitrary limitation that came about from an epiphany someone had while putting on a cape and a star and moon pointy hat and thoughtfully stroking their fake beard. It's at least based in the real world, which means it has far more of a head start than anything AD&D.
Sulphur on 12/9/2011 at 19:55
Quote Posted by dexterward
It was about Bioshock being streamlined and bigger general narrative that happens in gaming these days. Which is making games "easier" and "more accessible" Which usually leads to simply dumbing them down - vide Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 2 that you handily quote.
I posted Demon`s Souls as a example of a game that while considered by Sony itself too weird, difficult and with "unusual design" - exactly the things dethtolls "crazy people" were praising and defending for years. Do you really think I haven`t read the reviews? (It is a rhetorical question, tx.)
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Here's the originating quote:
Quote Posted by "Papy"
The fact is some player do love what you call "stupid bullshit" and removing this "bullshit" will only alienate him. So why did gaming design conventions shifted almost exclusively to fast food games?
Quote Posted by "dethtoll"
Because crazy people who like frustrating nonsense that adds nothing to the game have become a minority in this market?
I don't have a dog in this fight, but going by what dethtoll is talking about, 'frustrating nonsense' is something on the level of having your armour fall off for no discernible reason due to arcane bullshit with the game's mechanics -- the game in question here being Arcanum, where this actually happens. Bioshock's dumbing down is a different, if related, issue.
Demon's Souls does
not have any arcane bullshit, and while it's difficult, it's not all that difficult to
understand how its systems work, nor is it complex in comparison to a normal AD&D game. It's a wholly bad example of 'frustrating nonsense' because it's playable on an almost intuitive level, and I champion that myself.
Quote:
Oh dear, but it`s not about some scholar "origin" it`s just that it straight up doesn`t work. You might as well say "buttery butt" 10 times. Devil`s Dictionary:
"The exception proves the rule" is an expression constantly upon the lips of the ignorant, who parrot it from one another with never a thought of its absurdity. In the Latin, Exceptio probat regulam means that the exception tests the rule, puts it to the proof, not confirms it. The malefactor who drew the meaning from this excellent dictum and substituted a contrary one of his own exerted an evil power which appears to be immortal."
I'm being out-pedanted! I WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS OUTRAGE :mad:
Blah blah blah. Welcome to the modern world, and English, where even such
heinously incorrect phrases happen to be more regularly used than you'd like.
And anyway, that's not even the point. For as much as I welcome a digression into pedantry, right now it's simply getting in the way of what I'm talking about, so in the interest of closing this stupid and pointlessly tangential side-debate: you win this week's pedantry award.
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CiV 4? I thought we were about older games. There is not much "feedback" or tutorials in Colonization.
What? I don't even know what you're arguing about. I was talking about feedback in games not being obfuscated or their systems not being exotic. Whether they're old games or new games isn't even the point, that's something you decided to arbitrarily foist on the argument.
Even if I let you go on that tangent -- obviously old Civ was popular: gaming wasn't anywhere near mainstream popularity around then, the audience was far narrower than it is today, and much less varied. Games like Civ didn't come with in-game tutorials because games like Civ were specifically made for a certain group of people back then. The video game audience for it then was every geeky teenager with access to a computer and too much time on his/her hands; today, the demographics are a little different. Civ's still made for a certain group of people, but it's become more accessible because it understands that demographics have changed.
Quote:
This - and the rest - of your argument is completely unnecessary. Trying to paint me & similar types into fuddy-duddy bearded stuck-ups wielding the mandatory +1 Sword of Cliche might go down well with the gallery, but is simply untrue. Well, at least in my case - and that is because I play & enjoy most of the current crop of RPGs. I also don`t go around and preach to people these new uns are evil and the only true way is the olden one (some do, admittedly)
Like I said before - my only beef is with people who do the contrary and every time something like Grimrock comes up, they barge in and explain that you`re not really enjoying it - you`re stuck in some nostalgia fantasy and that game sucks. Well, thanks guys, but we don`t really need rescuing - happy there, ta da! And if it is so hard to comprehend you can participate in both -modern & old - worlds, than that is too bad - but nothing I can explain to anyone or argue about.
I'm not painting you into anything more than what you've been trying to paint anyone else. After all, people who don't like this stuff are mentally lazy, right? Give it a rest.
