piln on 4/4/2010 at 20:33

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Thanks for the response Fidcal. As you rightly say, everyone has different opinions about design approaches; after so many years of FMs there are many approaches, and I'm aware my opinions may be totally at odds with the Thief community at large :cheeky:. Seriously though, there's such a range of different tastes and playing styles, it's probably impossible to please everyone. I really only felt compelled to give this feedback because I liked the mission so much - if it was just a decent play-once FM I probably wouldn't have cared enough to go into such detail, and it's kind of worrying that criticisms will come across the wrong way. Similarly, my continued discussion is not meant to be argumentative, it's simply because I like talking about game design.



This I completely agree with, at this early stage the enticing view compelled me to explore (and looked good). Plus, it's controlled by a lever which keeps that item count down.

I do use the item category scrolling, my mouse has a tilt-wheel which is a good place to map it. Regarding readables: personally, I don't like the approach of expecting the player to drop the things they don't need, because without foreknowledge of a mission they won't know what they're going to need and what is throwaway. Granted, with some of the items (eg named chest keys, one-room clues) it would be obvious, but not all of them. And it begs the question: if you expect the player to pick up, read and then drop a text, why make it a pick-up at all?

Regarding unpickable doors, I'd say all but two of the ones you listed as 'maybes' could have been made pickable, and their corresponding keys left out of the mission to reduce clutter and make navigation less frustrating. I did, in fact, take the alternate route through the library first (not by KOing Wickish, but by holding the door open as he left) and didn't feel that the experience suffered for it. Most of those maybes were concerned with steering the player along a preferred route, and that's where my irks stem from - it would have been possible, and IMO preferable, to let the player make their own route through most of the building with picks and far fewer keys. Early plot readables can be discovered in any order, the player piecing the details together (as we're used to from Thief OMs), and only the vital rooms, loot and texts need be literally locked away in a strictly controlled order (I'd say Edridge's room, Martha's food hatch, housekeep's room and pump room are the only ones that were really necessary [edit] oh, and the torture cell and old storeroom[/edit]). When most of the mission's progress is controlled just as strictly, the steering becomes noticeable.

So to answer 'what could you have done instead,' if we're just talking about the route you would prefer the player to take, I'd honestly say let go of the reins. You can nudge them rather than using barriers to channel them strictly. Lets take some examples from the mission: for the rear hall entrance, you could just deter the player with an always-on light above the door and guard patrol(s) that leave very little opportunity for a pick attempt. Faced with this, most players would choose the open window anyway (which, I agree, is a more fun way in) then pick the door from inside - one less key. The garden can be accessed with the key collected along the way, or from the window on the upper floor - so why have the key at all? The readable in the kitchen could simply refer to the garden being out-of-bounds and make no mention of a key, and the door could be pickable. Saves another unnecessary key in the inventory, and saves the possibility of a player missing the key and becoming frustrated. This might seem like nitpicking, but I think in a mission of any size, once you get over 10~12 keys some pruning is in order, not least because every key carries a chance of the player missing it and stalling their progress.

As an example of a different approach, I'd compare this to The Builder's Influence. Geographically much smaller, but still fairly complex for its size. It took me just over 2hrs on first play through, so it's not like one of those early missions. It only had three unpickable doors, and three corresponding keys (very few pick-up readables too, I can only remember two). Most plot texts could potentially have been discovered in any order at all, but IMO the storytelling was excellent. I think you would have been safe to do that here too, paring down to lock away only the most vital aspects.

Needless to say, the points I've mentioned don't cover the many individual moments of great gameplay in a 4hr+ mission. I particularly enjoyed the climbing opportunities, ghosting the archers' walkway, guard towers and rooftops, and it was a creepy thrill to explore the spidery areas. I only noticed the clock tower on the way out so didn't observe it for long - does the clock actually work? And I heard the chimes - do these indicate when the archer starts & ends his break?




Yes, that's right.