piln on 4/4/2010 at 20:33
Thanks for the response Fidcal. As you rightly say, everyone has different opinions about design approaches; after so many years of FMs there are many approaches, and I'm aware my opinions may be totally at odds with the Thief community at large :cheeky:. Seriously though, there's such a range of different tastes and playing styles, it's probably impossible to please everyone. I really only felt compelled to give this feedback because I liked the mission so much - if it was just a decent play-once FM I probably wouldn't have cared enough to go into such detail, and it's kind of worrying that criticisms will come across the wrong way. Similarly, my continued discussion is not meant to be argumentative, it's simply because I like talking about game design.
Quote Posted by Fidcal
Basement: courtyard and portcullis. Maybe. But there are two other ways in that are not locked. The portcullis in particular gives a teasing view of some goodies so you have to find the way over.This I completely agree with, at this early stage the enticing view compelled me to explore (and looked good).
Plus, it's controlled by a lever which keeps that item count down.I do use the item category scrolling, my mouse has a tilt-wheel which is a good place to map it. Regarding readables: personally, I don't like the approach of expecting the player to drop the things they don't need, because without foreknowledge of a mission they won't know what they're going to need and what is throwaway. Granted, with some of the items (
eg named chest keys, one-room clues) it would be obvious, but not all of them. And it begs the question: if you expect the player to pick up, read and then drop a text, why make it a pick-up at all?
Regarding unpickable doors, I'd say all but two of the ones you listed as 'maybes' could have been made pickable, and their corresponding keys left out of the mission to reduce clutter and make navigation less frustrating. I did, in fact, take the alternate route
through the library first (not by KOing Wickish, but by holding the door open as he left) and didn't feel that the experience suffered for it. Most of those maybes were concerned with steering the player along a preferred route, and that's where my irks stem from - it would have been possible, and IMO preferable, to let the player make their own route through
most of the building with picks and far fewer keys. Early plot readables can be discovered in any order, the player piecing the details together (as we're used to from Thief OMs), and only the vital rooms, loot and texts need be literally locked away in a strictly controlled order (
I'd say Edridge's room, Martha's food hatch, housekeep's room and pump room are the only ones that were really necessary [edit] oh, and the torture cell and old storeroom[/edit]). When most of the mission's progress is controlled just as strictly, the steering becomes noticeable.
So to answer 'what could you have done instead,' if we're just talking about the route you would prefer the player to take, I'd honestly say let go of the reins. You can nudge them rather than using barriers to channel them strictly. Lets take some examples from the mission:
for the rear hall entrance, you could just deter the player with an always-on light above the door and guard patrol(s) that leave very little opportunity for a pick attempt. Faced with this, most players would choose the open window anyway (which, I agree, is a more fun way in) then pick the door from inside - one less key. The garden can be accessed with the key collected along the way, or from the window on the upper floor - so why have the key at all? The readable in the kitchen could simply refer to the garden being out-of-bounds and make no mention of a key, and the door could be pickable. Saves another unnecessary key in the inventory, and saves the possibility of a player missing the key and becoming frustrated. This might seem like nitpicking, but I think in a mission of
any size, once you get over 10~12 keys some pruning is in order, not least because every key carries a chance of the player missing it and stalling their progress.
As an example of a different approach, I'd compare this to The Builder's Influence. Geographically much smaller, but still fairly complex for its size. It took me just over 2hrs on first play through, so it's not like one of those early missions. It only had three unpickable doors, and three corresponding keys (very few pick-up readables too, I can only remember two). Most plot texts could potentially have been discovered in any order at all, but IMO the storytelling was excellent. I think you would have been safe to do that here too, paring down to lock away only the most vital aspects.
Needless to say, the points I've mentioned don't cover the many individual moments of great gameplay in a 4hr+ mission. I particularly enjoyed the climbing opportunities, ghosting the archers' walkway, guard towers
and rooftops, and it was a creepy thrill to explore the spidery areas. I only noticed the clock tower on the way out so didn't observe it for long - does the clock actually work?
And I heard the chimes - do these indicate when the archer starts & ends his break?Quote:
The slow match I'll look at. I assume you mean just dragging it against a surface it's impact sound is the default doom beep.
Yes, that's right.
kittykat on 4/4/2010 at 21:13
Quote Posted by Fidcal
Kittycat:
Check your compass and stand at the north side of the table. Looking north to the bookcases turn slightly to your right and you see the bookshelves are in shadow. Move the chair there and stand on it. Facing the books at about eyelevel but looking up slightly, look at the books. One is sticking out slightly and will highlight as you look at it. Frob it and it opens a secret door further along to the right. It times out and closes again after half a minute so if it is closed before you get to it then frob the book again. If you still cannot see it then I will have to play the game and take a screenshot or count the exact book and shelf.I must be in a different library because all bookcases are on the south facing wall in the room. If so where is the right library
kittykat on 4/4/2010 at 21:20
I just counted my keys and I have 23 keys with those I have 2 of and I am still missing 4 keys for 4 doors I can't open.??????
piln on 4/4/2010 at 21:27
You may be in the office - I got there first and assumed it might be the library because there were a few bookcases and a table near a bookcase, just like it says in the clue. But I was wrong, the library is nearby. If you are now in the office, believe me you will know when you find the library, it's unmistakable :)
Some hints:
The guy who patrols around this area (Wickish) carries two keys, one for the office, one for a desk. You may have already stolen them. It sounds like you are currently in the office, not the library, but you can check by using Wickish's office key.
Wickish also patrols in & out of the library, among other places. Watch him, see where he goes (if he's still concious).
If you find you can't get into the library right now, check out the spiral staircase instead.
pwl on 4/4/2010 at 21:27
Hello all I am getting an error message that says File Maps\Heart.script, Line138:Unknown value setDroppable This happens after ut is installed and at the screen where you select which difficulty you want. Any help will be appreciated Thanx.
P.S. I tried downloading from mirror but getting same error!!
kittykat on 4/4/2010 at 21:42
Quote Posted by piln
You may be in the office - I got there first and assumed it might be the library because there were a few bookcases
and a table near a bookcase, just like it says in the clue. But I was wrong, the library is nearby. If you are now in the office, believe me
you will know when you find the library, it's unmistakable :)
Some hints:
The guy who patrols around this area (Wickish) carries two keys, one for the office, one for a desk. You may have already stolen them. It sounds like you are currently in the office, not the library, but you can check by using Wickish's office key.Wickish also patrols in & out of the library, among other places. Watch him, see where he goes (if he's still concious).If you find you can't get into the library right now, check out the spiral staircase instead. Best hint I have found here, thank you :D
Fidcal on 4/4/2010 at 22:06
Thanks Railgun15: Mmm.. I know that invisible objectives 'complete' so it is strange that when made visible it did not show complete. I'll check on that. Maybe a bug. There is another objective bug - if you drop the health potion then take it away, it does not UNcheck even though it is reversible.
@piln: Yes I welcome feedback. After all, by definition, if something is annoying then to that extent the FM fails - at least with some players - so if a solution can be found then it should be used. Clearly I don't think much can be done with this FM because the keys are kind of built into the story but it might be interesting to work out an FM gameplay design that satisfies all (or at least more) for a future FM. (though remember, most players have found this FM OK as it is. ;))
Regarding readables I have to say which could be static. They are nearly all clues. I hate reading a static clue and have to write it down so I don't forget. No, the real problem is the inventory system is not ideal for lots of items. I tried to promote the idea of a second inventory bag to which you could transfer items you were reluctant to drop just in case. You select an item in the inventory then press a special key that switches to the other inventory taking the selection with it. If you press that by mistake you need only press it again to switch back. To switch without transfer you just select the blank or perhaps loot which might show in both or perhaps not transfer. You can keep in the main inventory just 1 or 2 of the latest readables and keys, etc. I also tried to promote player notes like I did with Garrett in Nightwatch - but more extensive so optionally a summary of all readable clues would be added into one readable.
Yes, the clock keeps real time and can be used to trigger any number of timed events - in this case the archer takes his break at 2:00am to make it easier for the player (if he wishes because you can still get in even with both guards there if you time it right.)
Fidcal on 4/4/2010 at 22:16
pwl: Your Dark Mod is definitely not up to date. Try the updater again. If it still will not work you may have to do this: Copy the tdm_update.exe from the darkmod folder to another spare empty folder and run it there to get the full download again. Then copy all those files including the tdm_update.exe back to the darkmod folder. Sorry I don't know any other way or why this happens.
pwl on 4/4/2010 at 23:00
Thanx Fidcal I just completed the updater (it took like an hour to update!) and now it is working!:thumb:
kittykat on 4/4/2010 at 23:22
Oh my this is one of the best fm´s I have played in darkmod. Really a hard 1 but with help everything is possible :D. I didn´t find all the loot and I failed the alarm objective but that´s ok will try that on the next play through. Also could not figure out how to use the match, used a fire arrow instead :sly: any hints on that would be good. Also for those who haven´t finished I recommend to look very closely everywhere, walls and floors and under things ;)
Thanks to the authors for this gem of a mission :thumb: