Comments on the mission, courtesy of Yandros. I haven't read them yet, but here they are. Thanks to everyone who has played it, and taken the time to post impressions on it!
Quote:
"Great atmosphere, this city really looks like a place where something terrible happened.
The gameplay is very classic but still good.
But above all, the story is tell perfectly. It's rating shall be (26/30)"
this mission was epic,had alot of stuff to do and see,must play for any thief fan
"This is, hands down, the best FM I've ever played. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this flawless city mission, it does everything incredibly right.
Melan's depiction of Hightowne is dark and tall, with several gothic and industrial-looking buildings. Castles, courts, greenhouses, gaudy palaces, oriental/Calendra's Cistern-looking spires, pubs, overlook restaurants and plazas... this mission has it all. The winding streets and tall structures create a very oppressive atmosphere, which is reinforced by the choice of textures and especially the use of sound. The titular Rose Garden is a moody and sinister location that sees very little human activity, and is quite unsettling in its own right.
As usual with Melan, you will climb everywhere in this mission. While relatively linear and funneling until you reach your contact in Rose Garden, the mission drastically opens up later and you can go pretty much everywhere you like. The mission loops around quite a lot and it is easy to get disorientated until you get your bearings. The player starting in the middle of town also contributes to this. The main objective with the hired muscle is quite fun and interesting, and works relatively well overall (though making a hard save before ringing the bells is a good idea).
Story-wise, this is also quite flawless with a dark, pulpy noir story and excellent reading material. Every stone in Hightowne has a story to tell. Often dark, sometimes mysterious but always interesting. As you can imagine, I had an absolute blast playing this mission and I cannot not give it the best score. A masterpiece."
Great city mission with plenty of places to explore and a great variety in environments. Atmosphere is top notch, the story is interesting and there are some unusual elements in its gameplay. It felt a bit too linear at the beginning though, as there is only one path to progress at first until you finally manage to open the locked gates throughout the district.
Insufficient clues, unhelpful map. too many readables. Gave up.
7 hour 43 min to finish. Wow. The true and deep spirit of Thief is here. so many things to do and to see !!! i'm amazed. i've spend better times in this mission than in thief 4. Bravo
The only real complaint I have is the difficulty I had in navigation, and the number of readables I ended up with in my inventory. It was otherwise stellar work.
A masterfully created FM any way you look at it. However there are too many readables and many of them are too long. Also some of the paths are too circuitous. I had to climb on top of the buildings (areas with no footstep sounds) to gain access to Humphrey's and Haskell's because that was easier than locating the intended routes.
Loved the big areas of city exploration but didn't love the large amount of rope work and "find the place you need to jump to". Also, the "protect the person" goal of later portion of the mission was different. In general, lots of ropework and having to protect civilians that enemy are trying to attack are not my cup of tea. That said, this was a well-done mission in terms of the city areas and secret areas all over the place.
"Finished, almost 3 hours of gameplay, What an amazing experience i had with this one, The map is giant and so beautiful, an insane level design that made the scenarios stand out in a very dynamic way, warm atmospheres everywhere, sweet enjoyable gamelplay, interesting readables, ambient sounds well chosen and well placed, beautiful constructions that creates a magical scenario. Gabor thank you so much for making this gemstone, i hope you´ll do more beauties like this one for thief 1/G or thief 2
my score for this mission is 9 out of 10.
THANK YOU !!!"
"A bit overcomplicated at times, certainly not for new players to the thief universe.
I'm being objective here, I like the climbing on buildings and using rope arrows a lot.
I really searched the Rose Garden for a secret behind two metal covers, to no avail, but I did find the Mystery key to the apartment and the secret ""necromancer"" room there.
And that key also fitted into a lock on a flat roof.
What the fog?
I didn't find any use for the explosive device and all the fire arrows though.
Very well done overall."
Excellent Melan Mission. Lots of verticality and a huge sprawling city area to explore. Plot was interesting and well developed, though I agree it ended a bit abruptly. Had to play twice as I failed to figure out how to get to the Hammer section for ages the first time. Escort mission was well executed with ways to prevent encounters.
Gameplay is fun, very often actually. But as a contest entry, this mission is far far too long... It would be better to split it to at least two missions.
This is the longest and the most exhausting mission in the whole contest.
"This mission is definitely unique, and there's a lot to say about it.
It left a peculiar feeling, and during all the mission, I felt like something had to happen later, which gave a good climax. The main objective was really long to reach (at least, it was, for me), for the streets were difficult to reach one to another, and I was often lost in this vast part of the City. Talking about it, it was really nicely designed, with a vertical architecture I enjoyed and many places to explore and rob. The Rose Garden place itself was really creepy at the end, and the author did show originality there, as well as for the near-final part of the mission, when you have to protect that guy from assassins downtown. Hard but original and pleasant. I also liked the bell ringings thing, with the guards vanishing then from the streets.
The design of the city, I said it, was well polished. However, I regret many places were hard to reach because of difficulty to not be seen by a urban guard/archer and the numerous luminous places over the roofs. I also lost my nerves several times with this metallic pipe/beam over the streets, which helped you to reach the roof above, but was impossible to reach down without being injured by the fall. And I felt this at several moments again throughout the mission : a place you can reach in a direction but not in the other without having trouble. I'll also point out the numerous places with nothing to find there. These things spoiled my pleasure often in the mission.
I also felt there were too many AIs by moment, and in luminous places again or with a lot of tile. I also had pain or just couldn't reach some places without being spotted : the shop in the covered street with the ghost dead-ahead, the Grandmauden castle (if someone found a way to reach the window without getting rid of the archer outside ?), etc. Again, I don't like when an author forces the player to use his/her blackjack/gas arrows/mines, it's not fair for it's possible to play the rest of the mission without doing so, even if hard at times.
For all of that, the mission occasionally brought me frustration and felt very very long for me, I could even say too long. I thought the mission would end after the town pursuit and would have left the mission with a good impression. But then came the Grandmauden castle to trespass on, the impossible-to-dodge archer, tile, the guest blocked into the tree thus harassing me when I try to cross the hall... I think it was a bit too much to add this part of the mission, which was already long and hard enough. Maybe a two-part mission would have been more reasonable in my humble opinion.
As for the story, nothing to say : it was excellent and complex, and was original, justifying the numerous places to visit. The person who contacted Garrett felt like a dangerous and ominous guy, and that gave a good feeling. Good twist when you finally discover the last floor of the inn and what awaits you at the end, and again, much originality with that guy to follow and protect. I'd just say there were maybe too many readables ; even if they weren't all conntected to the main plot, that made a bit difficult to assimilate so much information and remember what was useful or not for the different objectives of the mission.
So it's hard to say what I felt the most in this mission : pleasure or frustration ? Somewhere in my mind, I think it was still more pleasure, but many things spoiled it sometimes because of the frustration they generated. I still think the mission was too long to be in one part, but I won't deny its great quality, whether it concerns the originality of gameplay, the fascinating story or the well-designed architecture."
A very impressive city mission, but the complex layout made it tricky to determine if I making progress or well off track.
Huge city, 3D, massive explore but difficult to navigate at times. Game-play suffered a bit.
Too mazelike, too obscure. Very atmospheric, but man does this mission make me feel stupid.
I found this one very confusing, but enjoyed the "thieve's highway" style.
"Absolutely fantastic atmosphere. Notes were of special interest here; literature felt completely legitimate and was not overbearing. The city was a real treat to explore with very decent verticality and detail. If there's anything stopping this from being a 9, I'd say that it lacked originally in some areas - barring the Rose Garden. Atmosphere was the highlight of this FM, by far.
Gameplay suffered intensely from the complex layout of the city; I spent a VERY long time trying to figure out where I was trying to go. I'll add that some of the jumps to traverse the more vertical elements of the city were a tad frustrating at times, as well. I had so much fun playing this - the verticality alone was lovely - but I can't deny the amount of frustation I got along the way.
Story was fairly standard, decently polished, etc.
Definitely one of my favorite FMs as of late!
Also loved the throne room and cucumber jokes. Hilarious.
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Other random ratings:
FM Name:
6/10"
"(I have substituted 'Design' for 'Story' when rating submissions in which Story would score lower)
Atmosphere=10
Design=9 (Architecture/asset usage/room layout)
Gameplay=9
Personally, I think Disorientaton edges out Rose Garden as Melan's best, it being both slightly more elegant and somewhat more clearly laid out than this one -- the forums indicate that many people are struggling to find the 'correct' way into the titular garden, and I have my own doubts about whether I did it correctly! In addition, after playing for >3 hours I felt as if the narrative payoff was somewhat underwhelming.
However, these criticisms are all in the context of Melan's own portfolio, which is one of immense quality. Rose Garden is easily his second best and a solid contender for first, and it still towers above the large majority of all FMs ever made. In many ways it exceeds Disorientation; one really only needs to play it to realise that its scope and architecture are basically unparalleled in the Thief canon.
Relative to how massive it was, I have very few complaints. It is also a technical marvel. The framerate never dropped below 120 fps for me, even from the highest points on the map (out-of-bounds included). DromEd reveals a super efficient approach to managing brushes/objects/backface counts etc., just like Disorientation -- a sign that an author cut their teeth in the 1.18 days. It is amazing to see Melan make full use of NewDark.
Overall, the abundant mantling opportunities in a realistic and multifaceted city were glorious good fun, and the architecture is beyond reproach... but it is not quite perfect, and I can think of two others in this competition that were."
Review: (
https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthre...86#post2414486)
This is a large and complicated mission with great architecture. Lots of complicated route finding with vertical content. Easy to get lost but very fun to play. I found myself going through the same areas repeatedly trying to find a new route. I played it for 16 hours clock time because I felt compelled to find some places on the map I had missed. The map was hard to understand since many of the routes were vertical. One thing that left a blemish for me was the need to escort a bookkeeper past lots of hostile AI. Playing in ghost mode, there were a lot of enemies chasing me (us), so I made it to the end only a few times out of many replays. Even then, the objective surprisingly did not check off when the bookkeeper was delivered safely.
From a technical point of view this is a disaster. The author ignored more than 100 warnings and errors in DromEd. I hope this FM will be polished soon.
"Ah. One of your previous FMs, Disorientation, happens to be one of my favourites and yet... I bounced off this one quite hard; awkward, considering I love missions as sprawling and vertical as this one.
I think that might've been due to the start of the mission, which I feel set a precedent for the rest of it. I was stuck for quite a while until I found the way to progress in the ""Throne Room"" (which I think is the only way to progress) about half an hour later. Maybe a fault on my part, but there were plenty more instances were I was left stumped about how to proceed - Haskell's and Grandmauden's come to mind in particular.
Graundmauden's was also a bit disappointing, considering the rest of the mission prior to it felt like one big buildup to infiltrating the mansion. Still, considering the size of the level, I imagine adding anything more would make Dromed implode.
The one thing I absolutely can't fault you on is atmosphere. There was a constant tension throughout the level, whether that was skulking through the streets, looming over them; and of course, when going through Rose Garden as well. So many beautiful details through small homes and readables did wonders for the immersion.
This may also be the first time I've enjoyed an escort quest in any game, let alone mission, although a quick reload was needed once I realised what all those markings were about (and that they could be frobbed)!"
"Atmosphere - 9
You can't help but marvel at the design of the city. It is nothing short of absolutely stunning. The individual places to visit were given nice ambience and distinctiveness. I also liked some AI mash-ups. All in all, a very nice looking map.
Gameplay - 4
Lots of reservations here. The city gives the impression of being very accessible and open. However, as most of the “natural” ways are impassable, many places are only reachable from a single point, and often requiring finding bizarre secrets. Similarly, to unlock new areas and proceed with the mission you almost always need to visit one particular location, making the mission extremely linear. Paradoxically, whilst many seemingly accessible locations proved unreachable, I was able to access one soundless rooftop section (near the door you unlock with a skull). From there you could get some cool views of the city and take a shortcut to some blocked-off locations. One side-effect of requiring so many unorthodox moves was the necessity to often quickload. Unfortunately, due to the sheer size of the map every reload took that several seconds, and with the number of loads counted literally in hundreds, that proved really frustrating. Make no mistake, this mission is one difficult piece of a puzzle which will require numerous unusual solutions, giving very little help, with written tips often cryptic to the point of being useless. I would accept obscure hints, but definitely not obscure goals. Unfortunately, both the “follow Bernalt to his destination” and the “Bernalt must not be hurt” objectives, as well as the note from the client were completely bogus and totally off what actually must be done to tick off the objectives. It really stretched my nerves to the point of nearly abandoning the mission altogether with endless repetitions and trying to figure out what's going on. Some minor points - the provided map was a bit like the whole mission in a nutshell - beautifully and meticulously crafted, but not really usable - it included some completely useless names you won't even find in the city, while missing some really important ones. Also, a few ladders must have been misplaced as you couldn't get off them normally.
Story - 7
The main story of the mission was well presented and very well accentuated in the in-game world. I was also impressed by the number of side stories that were considerably developed. The written parts mostly stayed coherent with the world and its atmosphere. A really beautiful work in this department. I didn't like that the mission ended so abruptly and without giving any resolution or at least some event which would serve as a clever, convincing closure."
This mission was truly ambitious, and the exploration was immense and rewarding. The story was sometimes confusing given the sheer amount of information found along the way in the mission. What is ironic, is that your readables are some of the best I have ever read in any FM, but there were too many of them in the mission altogether, and most of them went into inventory. Even so, I think your writing is excellent and you have a wicked fun sense of humor. There were some simple design flaws like outward opening doors and places in the terrain where the player can get stuck, but these seemed to hint more of a time constraint issue, given the size and complexity of your map. Overall, I had a great time playing it, and never needed to consult the forums on how to proceed. I hope we may see more and more and more of your work for years to come.
This is an amazing city layout with tons of thieves highway shenanigans, lots of hidden areas to find, new large areas of the map continually opening up, natural and organic layout of the city, clever ideas for gameplay including trailing the mark, removing X's in advance to help keep him safe, cleverly hidden caches and strange goings on that were inexplicable but all the more fun for that. The atmosphere was moody and thrilling in some areas, though a bit lacking in others, but overall I walked around smiling inside all the time at having such a playground to explore. The story was engaging and interesting, though I felt it to be overly complex at times. It was almost as if this story was meant for a much larger mission, or even a campaign. Either that, or I just missed discovering some things, which I hope is the case, because I intend to replay this mission many times! An example of this is the numerous symbols placed on walls throughout the map. Some seemed to mark caches of illicit goods, while others seemed to have no purpose I could ascertain. I hope they are all meaningful, although I failed to divine the meaning if so. Perhaps I will discover it on a replay. The readables are inspired and among my favorite in any FM. You are truly gifted at turning a phrase, and many are immensely funny. My only complaint is that there were too many of them, and many were overly long. The map was useful, thought the font was a bit hard to read. My only other complaint was that there was a bit too much tile coupled with touchy guards. But I realize that this might have been due to time constraints for the contest. At any rate, it's a blast to play, and I was engaged from start to finish. Certainly one of my top favorites of the contest. Well done, and thank you for such a gem. Can't wait to play many more from you in the future.
For all the comments about it being challenging and obtuse, I found Rose Garden a fair bit easier than Disorientation. It also might be the most gorgeous TG FM so far.