Rogue Keeper on 12/9/2007 at 09:14
Quote Posted by nicked
I don't understand the hysterical hype surrounding the cradle. Sure, it's a pretty scary level, but it didn't do anything Return to the Cathedral didn't do. At the end of the day, it's just a bunch of pointless errands set by a ghost again. It's a fun, well-designed, scary level, but it doesn't deserve the fanatical worship it seems to receive.
Sure it did. It's ten times more psychological and intimate human than RttC. Less supernatural fantasy, more dark side of reality and corruption of the mind.
It make you think about the essence of sanity, controversy medical ethics and perverted decisions of social establishment. The story of authoritative oppressors and the weak oppressed. The confrontation of helpless child with the cold world of the adults and psychotic deviance.
It's a rare case when a horror speaks so personally to the viewer or player. If you had something to do with psychotic mind in your family, you will appreciate the Cradle even more.
Madness is a religion and Asylum it's church.
Now you finally understand what you call a "hysterical hype" surrounding it.
nicked on 12/9/2007 at 11:39
Quote Posted by BR796164
It make you think about the essence of sanity, controversy medical ethics and perverted decisions of social establishment. The story of authoritative oppressors and the weak oppressed. The confrontation of helpless child with the cold world of the adults and psychotic deviance.
All typical horror cliches which don't impress me. All the Cradle boils down to is a haunted house. Gee, never seen that before. Especially not in hundreds of cliched horror films over the last 100 years. :p They could at least have had the building
do something. It's supposed to be "alive" so what about the walls breathing in places, or the rooms and doors shifting within the building.
All I see when I play the cradle is a competently designed asylum with an annoying shopping list of objectives and some zombies with souped-up stats and a bunch of ambient sound triggers. I've had more immersive experiences in T2 fan missions (which is not to say the cradle is a bad level, just not as good as some people make out, and is also a testament to how great some FMs are).
Rogue Keeper on 12/9/2007 at 12:53
Quote Posted by nicked
All typical horror cliches which don't impress me. All the Cradle boils down to is a haunted house. Gee, never seen that before. Especially not in hundreds of cliched horror films over the last 100 years. :p
Your mind is closed, that's why. Perhaps you would like to have a haunted space ship or haunted concrete block appartment instead, I don't know. Any film about victorian asylum and orphanage at the same time you can name? Perhaps the classic concept of a victorian / gothic horror is the problem for you. In that case the key problem would be in game's setting.
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They could at least have had the building
do something. It's supposed to be "alive" so what about the walls breathing in places, or the rooms and doors shifting within the building.
Now that's one hell of a cliche. By the way, the lamps do slowly vary in light intensity and the haze under them moves as if the building was breathing, but I guess that was too subtle for such an insensitive player like you to notice.
The echoing voices of patients and children which leak from cradle's walls are not enough for you to notice that the building is sentient and has memory. You need the walls moving in last 100 years. Ideally a funny leprechaun should materialize in front of you and tell you "I am Cradle's avatar and I want to notify you that, just in case you haven't noticed so far, this building is ALIVE! Carry on playing." *POOF*
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All I see when I play the cradle is a competently designed asylum with an annoying shopping list of objectives and some zombies with souped-up stats and a bunch of ambient sound triggers.
I see your point, that mission was supposed to be much shorter with less objectives because long missions with many objectives are bad. Ideally it should have had just one objective. The feeling that the Cradle wanted to make you it's prisoner forever and difficulties in Garrett's attempts to get out of there were bad as well. The episode in cradle's past was too difficult for you. Who cares about relying on pure stealth with no weapons available? You need more demon cutting and wicked bloodshed with a chainsaw.
The puppets were not your regular zombies as seen in Haunted Cathedral, for example. They are reanimated psychotic patients who have been disfigured by radical treatment methods and their movement resembles to catatonic form of schizophrenia.
I don't know however, what is wrong with ambient sound triggers in a horror game.
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I've had more immersive experiences in T2 fan missions (which is not to say the cradle is a bad level, just not as good as some people make out, and is also a testament to how great some FMs are).
In framework of what technological limitations of a multiplatform game allowed, it is a masterful achievement. From interview with Jordan Thomas it is obvious he spent a lot of time with research on asylums and psychiatric practice in the past before he made this mission, but he also knows a lot about how to create well measured micture of dread and shock in a computer game and it shows on it's high professionality.
Fan missions are full of cliches as well. You want to look different at all costs by nitpicking on purpose but it looks rather funny and unconvincing.
Lovecraftian on 12/9/2007 at 14:37
It's a good level, very atmospheric, but i wasn't that scared either. Well, maybe that was because i went into it with Full flashbombs. And i think were i live people are more desensitised to that sort of horror.
Rogue Keeper on 12/9/2007 at 15:28
That makes me think, anybody dared to play it lytha style, without disposal of the puppets? I know I didn't. :erm:
I agree that the amout of talk made many people, who didn't play it before, to expect something extatically terriffic and later they were sort of disappointed. That's unfortunately what popularity brings, it can create some unrealistic expectations. I think those people who didn't have a clue about the Cradle before they played TDS, have enjoyed it the most.
Null also said his goal wasn't to make an outright shocker type of horror (like AvP games or Doom 3), instead he has tried to create atmosphere of constant dread.
I don't see other people to mention that, but in addition to that feeling of constant dread (and rather rare, but the more valuable moments shock), the themes of that mission had quite depressive effect on me. In all respect to Haunted Cathedral, it didn't make me think about real life issues and human psychology, but Cradle did.
One horror with asylum theme comes to my mind now, old Sanitarium. Too bad I didn't play it much when I had a chance.
crunchy on 13/9/2007 at 03:36
Quote Posted by BR796164
That makes me think, anybody dared to play it lytha style, without disposal of the puppets? I know I didn't. :erm:
Yep, both times I have played it! :ebil:
DJ Riff on 13/9/2007 at 11:23
Quote:
anybody dared to play it lytha style
I don't like Lytha style — I prefer "never be seen" to "don't make damage". But yes, I've completed Cradle without disposal of the puppets. The only difficulty is on expert to take a special loot, but there's some workaround.
Rogue Keeper on 13/9/2007 at 12:31
Same thing for me, I guess. I don't mind having 2-3 blackjacks in a mission. But Cradle can be more or less easily accomplished without any kills. I just didn't find guts to ghost it yet. Next time, for sure!
Actually for me Cradle was the easiest TDS mission to collect all 3 special items and 100 percent loot. All is visibly placed. And maybe the loot glinting is easier to spot in that prevailently dark place. And I'm not ashamed to use loot glint as I find it damn convenient.
Curiously enough I didn't care about loot in Cradle much. Since G. went there for other purposes in the first place, who would voluntarily rob former haunted asylum/orphanage if there is so much loot elsewhere in the city ? But hey, thieves must make some profit.
Mikael Grizzly on 13/9/2007 at 16:31
Garrett needed to buy himself a fancy new cloak.
nicked on 13/9/2007 at 19:42
Quote Posted by BR796164
Your mind is closed, that's why. Perhaps you would like to have a haunted space ship or haunted concrete block appartment instead, I don't know. Any film about victorian asylum and orphanage at the same time you can name? Perhaps the classic concept of a victorian / gothic horror is the problem for you. In that case the key problem would be in game's setting.
I have no problem with the concept of the cradle or the atmosphere really. It is cliched, but as you say, plenty of fan missions etc. are cliched too. Cliches often work just fine in computer games (as opposed to films) because of the inclusion of the player and his/her choices.
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Now that's one hell of a cliche. By the way, the lamps do slowly vary in light intensity and the haze under them moves as if the building was breathing, but I guess that was too subtle for such an insensitive player like you to notice.
I'll admit it's been a while since I've played it so I can't remember that effect, but that's a good effect and a good idea, so +1 point to the cradle. ;)
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The echoing voices of patients and children which leak from cradle's walls are not enough for you to notice that the building is sentient and has memory. You need the walls moving in last 100 years. Ideally a funny leprechaun should materialize in front of you and tell you "I am Cradle's avatar and I want to notify you that, just in case you haven't noticed so far, this building is ALIVE! Carry on playing." *POOF*
Well that's just silly, but all I meant was that for a sentient building, it didn't have much personality beyond what Lauryl tells you about it. I would have liked to see the location of doors and rooms change occasionally, used as a gameplay device. That would have significantly added to the sense of claustrophobia imo. The Cradle is small enough that you can pretty much learn the level's layout pretty quick, and then it's just a case of hopping from point a to point b, over and over again. :p
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I see your point, that mission was supposed to be much shorter with less objectives because long missions with many objectives are bad. Ideally it should have had just one objective. The feeling that the Cradle wanted to make you it's prisoner forever and difficulties in Garrett's attempts to get out of there were bad as well. The episode in cradle's past was too difficult for you. Who cares about relying on pure stealth with no weapons available? You need more demon cutting and wicked bloodshed with a chainsaw.
I didn't find the sections in the cradle's past too difficult, I found them boring and rushed. It was clearly a last minute idea and it didn't feel fully implemented. It was like "I've had this great idea for the cradle, but the texture artists and model makers have all gone home!" "Aah, just use a plain black texture on a zombie and slap some green fog around, it'll be alright."
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The puppets were not your regular zombies as seen in Haunted Cathedral, for example. They are reanimated psychotic patients who have been disfigured by radical treatment methods and their movement resembles to catatonic form of schizophrenia.
I don't know however, what is wrong with ambient sound triggers in a horror game.
The puppets are very well done, although I'd have liked to see more variety. There's just one model. Once you've seen one, you've seen em all. What about some with/without bandaged faces, or cages in different states of being broken. There was some great concept art of a puppet with a broken face cage.
There's nothing wrong with ambient sounds, although some of the cradle ones felt gratuitous, like they just jammed them in to add jump-factor points.
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In framework of what technological limitations of a multiplatform game allowed, it is a masterful achievement. From interview with Jordan Thomas it is obvious he spent a lot of time with research on asylums and psychiatric practice in the past before he made this mission, but he also knows a lot about how to create well measured micture of dread and shock in a computer game and it shows on it's high professionality.
Fan missions are full of cliches as well. You want to look different at all costs by nitpicking on purpose but it looks rather funny and unconvincing.
Once again, you're missing the point. The cradle is a good level, I'm not disputing that. I thoroughly enjoyed it and it did unnerve me in places, although it wasn't as atmospheric as a lot of Thief 1 & 2 levels. All I was saying is that it's not the divine experience of unparrelled terror that cradle fan-boys try to make out.
I'm not trying to "look different at all costs", I'm just stating my opinion. That doesn't make it any more right or wrong than yours, however much you try and belittle me.
