ToolFan2007 on 11/3/2007 at 16:25
Well said Jashhin.
Kaiseto on 11/3/2007 at 17:41
Quote Posted by ToolFan2007
As much as I loved the original game back in 1998 and Thief 2 in 1999, when I replay those games I am greeted with very little but nostalgia. The original Thief has dated quite badly to be honest and as a result Thief 2 isn't much better as it plays almost the same but with more of a challenge. At least when I play Thief Deadly Shadows I can see the series has progressed and has been modernised which is certainly more than you could say about TMA when it came out.
I'll have to disagree with you on this. I played Thief: Deadly Shadows first. I enjoyed it. Quite a lot. I then went back and played the first two Thief games and found them to be significantly more enjoyable, if only due to better controls, and significantly larger levels. Maybe it's the fact that I've never equated old graphics with bad graphics, and I actually find the first two games to be more visually charming than the third, but I can tell you It's certainly not nostalgia that made me like the first two games more than the third.
Abysmal on 11/3/2007 at 21:09
I still don't buy the combat stuff because T1 encouraged a shitload of it in all the monster levels (which they admitted to addressing in T2), a fact that all the sticklers would rather go "lalalala" to than acknowledge it head on. T3 doesn't even encourage it, just supports it better. The ones obstinate to change will never actually admit it, just argue their way around it until they are blue in the face. They probably don't even realize they are obstinate. I think it's called NMA syndrome or something
I'd love to hear next why the distracting white health shields are aesthetically superior in their representation to red gems. Oh oh, and why the new loot chime is such an artistic disgrace to the legacy of the series
I do admit to quite a few T3 faults mind you (technology and difficulty), I'm not a total apologist. But I still contest that it is a fucking excellent entry into the Thief series and arguably superior to T2.
New Horizon on 12/3/2007 at 03:24
Quote Posted by Abysmal
I still don't buy the combat stuff because T1 encouraged a shitload of it in all the monster levels (which they admitted to addressing in T2), a fact that all the sticklers would rather go "lalalala" to than acknowledge it head on.
Take note...'monster levels'. Nobody denies that. The point often made in T1 and 2, is that you weren't a killer. You can't really kill what's already dead...or undead. It's not a simple matter of non-aggression...it's non-aggression towards humanoids.
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T3 doesn't even encourage it, just supports it better.
...better support does encourage the player though. That's the point.
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The ones obstinate to change will never actually admit it, just argue their way around it until they are blue in the face. They probably don't even realize they are obstinate. I think it's called NMA syndrome or something
You're quite right, the intransigent, unyielding soul would never admit to it and would argue just as vehemently as those who oppose them.
I for one was never arguing the point of T3 being geared more towards supporting combat, I was simply stating what Warren Spector himself stated in an interview, that it was a design decision to make combat more prominent in TDS than the previous games. That's a point of fact, not personal opinion.
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I'd love to hear next why the distracting white health shields are aesthetically superior in their representation to red gems.
Well, they weren't necessarily superior...but they were a hell of a lot smaller...even if they were white, they weren't that distracting. I personally found it far more distracting to have those huge red gems popping up like toast every time I got hurt. The thing about a stationary object, is that you can tune it out and forget it's there. The pop up gems....well, 'toast'...like I said.
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Oh oh, and why the new loot chime is such an artistic disgrace to the legacy of the series
Hardly a disgrace, there was just no real reason to replace it really. Especially when some of the other sounds remained the same.
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But I still contest that it is a fucking excellent entry into the Thief series and arguably superior to T2.
It's definitely a good game in its own right, but I stop short of calling it an excellent entry...and superior to T2. It does do a much better job with the missions than T2 did...T2 felt far too stitched together, but for my tastes...T2 would still edge it out as an overall tighter experience.
Aja on 12/3/2007 at 06:51
I recently started up TDS again (this'll be my second run through) after finishing it several years ago. This time, no tweaks (other than loot glint, lockpick hud and loot objective removal.. might restore the loot, not sure yet).
First off, the graphics are stunning. I just finished T2X, and though it was amazing, I was often frustrated by T2's lighting system, which is ambiguous and difficult to read. In Deadly Shadows, it's wonderful to actually SEE how much light Garrett is in instead of relying on the gem and guessing. I like the art style, and though it is certainly a departure from the originals, it's beautiful, so... no problem.
The movement (especially 1st person) is still wonky. Garrett is not agile when he's fast, but when you move slowly, it works fairly well. I LIKE THIRD PERSON. I switch frequently, and honestly I don't find it breaks the immersion at all. There are a few missing animations, but that's hardly a deal breaker; for the most part Garrett looks awesome and it's cool to watch him from a new perspective. Third person is also FAR smoother than first.
The combat.. argh. Blackjacking is hit or miss compared to the originals, and half the time I don't even hear a THUNK when it goes down. I can't understand why Ion Storm replaced the original 'click and hold to raise your arm', because T3 forces you swing at exactly the right moment, and unless you're using a joystick, it's very difficult to keep pace behind a patrolling guard you're trying to knock out. Yes, the challenge is increased this way, but it's more frustrating than fun. Works great if you ghost, but I find that when I get caught, I'm floundering - more hindered by poor movement and combat controls as I try to escape than in the originals. I don't think TDS offers much an "action-oriented" out at all (I wish it did!), simply because the movment is too twitchy, making it unnecessarily difficult to perform quick and accurate attacks. The dagger is pretty bad as well. I like the idea of backstabbing, and a dagger certainly makes more sense, but if worst comes to worse and you have to fight, it's next to useless.
Here's the crux: compared to the original games, there's a feeling of disconnect between the player and Garrett that I wrote about years ago in my initial impressions of the game. It's hard to describe exactly what it is, but it's clear that Jashin and ToolFan are unaware of it. I could forgive every other shortcoming if the player movement (including combat) felt more solid, more sure-footed, and less buggy. That was ALWAYS the main problem with Thief 3, and it's such a fundamental problem that I wouldn't be surprised if all the naysayers who now complain about small changes would've remained silent had the core mechanics of the game been more polished.
I sound overly negative, but I'm finding this game to be more fun the second time around. Maybe it's because I've played the originals so much that they're losing the element of surprise (still have some 400 FMs to play though), but I'm having a blast with TDS. It starts to fall apart when you think of what could've been (I'm with Dia on that one), and the engine glitches are numerous, occasionally compounding into frustration, but if you can ignore them take TDS on its own terms, it's great fun. Almost makes me wish they WOULD make a Thief 4.
Gvozdika on 12/3/2007 at 12:36
Quote Posted by Aja
Here's the crux: compared to the original games, there's a feeling of disconnect between the player and Garrett that I wrote about years ago in my initial impressions of the game. It's hard to describe exactly what it is, but it's clear that Jashin and ToolFan are unaware of it.
Add me in there. I like how in T3 minor movements only make Garrett turn his head while the rest of the body remains right in place. Just what I would do in reality to keep my profile low. It feels more real, less gamy. You need to take that into consideration when moving fast and make a good use of strafing to compensate for this. No problem there, just a matter of practice.
And Im not the one playing in 3rdPOV.
Quote Posted by New Horizon
The point often made in T1 and 2, is that you weren't a killer. You can't really kill what's already dead...or undead. It's not a simple matter of non-aggression...it's non-aggression towards humanoids.
Well. Its perfectly fine in T1 to slaughter all and any of the Tricksters creatures who are all humanoids except for the boom-frogs, are they not. They just belong to the other team.
New Horizon on 12/3/2007 at 14:06
Quote Posted by Aja
Almost makes me wish they WOULD make a Thief 4.
If Ion Storm had gotten a second chance with this engine...or if anyone had gotten a second chance with it, I'm sure they really could have pulled off something nice...so long as the console that they had to build for was the 360 and not the original xbox. That way, both pc and console could be identical. My only reservation is in knowing they were planning a 'modernized' Thief 4. I wouldn't have been interested in that myself...but at least it would have come with a more optimized engine and editing tools. I'm sure the community could have done something great! Too bad the source code for TDS couldn't be released...it 'could' be a great engine with some fixes.
n3utr0n on 12/3/2007 at 18:36
Hey new to the forums. I bought Thief Gold ages back but could never get into it, however I'm thoroughly enjoying TDS now. And I dunno about this encouraging combat over stealth thing as I've spent the entire game so far avoiding any confrontation (except when getting into Stonemarket). Besides, buying what is obviously being promoted as a stealth game and then fighting your way through it is just inherently self defeating, whether or not the game punishes you for it.
As for the 1st person/3rd person camera thing, FEAR had a similar 1st person camera and it too suffers from dodgy movement. I think the problem lies merely with changing the 1st person perspective from a "floating camera" to an actual head on a body, the latter being better for a game like Thief (ie. it's a slower paced game that doesn't require twitch gameplay responsiveness and it's useful for actually seeing if any part of your body falls in the light).
I can understand the disappointment though since being a fan of DX, I felt pretty much the same about DX:IW. It was still a good game, just not what I had hoped and not as good as my expectations (but isn't that always the problem?).
Oh and about the Garret being a thief not a murderer etc, I distinctly recall the opening cutscene of TDP showing him shoot an arrow into the neck of an unaware guard...
Dia on 12/3/2007 at 19:18
Welcome n3utr0n.
Quote Posted by n3utr0n
about the Garret being a thief not a murderer etc, I distinctly recall the opening cutscene of TDP showing him shoot an arrow into the neck of an unaware guard...
Best neener-neener I've heard in a long time. :p
Regardless of whether or not you meant it that way. ;)
vurt on 12/3/2007 at 20:24
Great, another Thief3 vs Thief1-2 thread :cheeky:
TDS was, imo, much better in many ways + scarier too, previous games really lacked graphics wise, even for their time (i did enjoy them though). I really liked that the play style and world in TDS didnt feel as restricted as in the previous games. I also found the quests and, especially, the levels themselves much better executed in TDS, and to me that's the most important thing in a game.
