imperialreign on 10/3/2007 at 01:08
I was also going to argue . . . I really didn't have too much of a problem with TDS; to me, it's still a great installment of the Thief series . . . there was just a lot that I was disappointed with
Also, the ambient music in T1/T2 were by far more effective in creating that 'scary' undertone - except for The Cradle, TDS was just kind of lacking in that great score
New Horizon on 10/3/2007 at 03:04
Quote Posted by Jashin
I more or less see the situation clearly now - the purists are upset that T3 isn't the exact mirror image of Thief in all aspects (graphics, feature set, technology...). In short, it's not the game as they know it. Meaning when the dev broadened the range of options between totally passive and full-on aggressive, the purists snapped.
Generalizing and seeing clearly are two completely different things. An exact Mirror image was definitely not expected. This was intended to be a modern representation of the game. Obviously, we expected the graphics to be enhanced. What I didn't expect, personally, was to see such a departure from the artistic style of the original game. To go from a more realistic style to a cartoonish artistic style was rather jarring. Also, for a game that was supposed to be a sequel, TDS almost completely ignored some of the core values of the previous games.
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It's the same basic scenario with 3rd-person pov - some just can't live with perfectly reasonable tenant of "just don't use it" and salem-witch-trialed the thing as a blasphemy to god.
I would have had no trouble ignoring third person....if there had been a 'true' first person option, but the fact of the matter is...you're hampered by third person whether you use it or not. First person was essentially treated as an after thought in order to recruit console players with third person sensibilities. If the TDS devs who decided to hack third person into the game had spent that time tweaking the body awareness for first person...well, I don't think anyone would have complained if they had later added third person. As it stands, third person works better than first...kind of a strange thing for a game that began life as a first person sneaker.
Abysmal on 10/3/2007 at 03:31
Cartoonish like burricks that belch gas, dopey lumbering apes, dimwitted guard comedy, outlandish T2 garb, Karras, floating mage rocks, speed/slowfall/invisible potions, portable exploding frogs, and talking robots that shoot ACME bombs?
Thief is not gritty realism (I'm sorry); it's more akin to comic book and T3 took that to its logical end by going hand-drawn.
New Horizon on 10/3/2007 at 04:13
Quote Posted by Abysmal
Cartoonish like burricks that belch gas, dopey lumbering apes, dimwitted guard comedy, outlandish T2 garb, Karras, floating mage rocks, speed/slowfall/invisible potions, portable exploding frogs, and talking robots that shoot ACME bombs?
I'm talking about the artistic style. Everything in TDS was ramped up when you compare it to the originals. Yes, the guards in the originals were dim-witted, but the artistic style kept it from becoming too campy. The acting kept the originals grounded too. That is how the originals succeeded in preventing Thief from becoming a comic book caricature of what they were trying to achieve, they grounded it in a gritty, realist style. The style of TDS simply made the world of Thief seem unbelievable and ridiculous. It went too far into camp and farce. The T1 and 2 worlds were presented with a style that was far more classical in nature, the art style in TDS looked like cheap, standard video game style...there was nothing uniquely classic or Thief-like about it.
They didn't take it to a logical end, they knocked it way out of balance...like almost everything in TDS....it suffered from excess.
Iceblade on 10/3/2007 at 04:18
T1/2 not watchable??? I used to watch my brother play thief when I was younger and enjoyed it.
KhAoZ on 10/3/2007 at 04:29
umm... did u guys not play the cradle level in the TDS? thats scarier than ANYTHING in thief gold or thief 2.... i actually had nightmares
New Horizon on 10/3/2007 at 05:28
Quote Posted by KhAoZ
umm... did u guys not play the cradle level in the TDS? thats scarier than ANYTHING in thief gold or thief 2.... i actually had nightmares
It was scary, but it wasn't any scarier than Haunted Cathedral. The scripted events lose effectiveness upon replay as well.
imperialreign on 10/3/2007 at 08:04
Quote:
It was scary, but it wasn't any scarier than Haunted Cathedral. The scripted events lose effectiveness upon replay as well.
True . . . first time through The Cradle was . . . unforgetable. But, subsequent visits, though, don't have the same effect, unfortunately. IMO, this is where the Cathedral (and Return to~) still stand above The Cradle, they're as effective as they were the first time (asides, the haunts in T1, IMHO, completely overshadow the puppets in terms of fright capability).
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Cartoonish like burricks that belch gas, dopey lumbering apes, dimwitted guard comedy, outlandish T2 garb, Karras, floating mage rocks, speed/slowfall/invisible potions, portable exploding frogs, and talking robots that shoot ACME bombs?
meh. I have to think that the guard qoutes and coversations were used more as a form of comic relief at times, considering the amount of tension that T1/T2 could generate. It helps some players to relax just a bit; similar to comic relief in dramas, movies, stageplays, etc.
As for the T2 outfits . . . I thought they seemed more along the lines of Rennasaince style clothing - except for the mechanists; but it was a big change from T1, I thought.
Gvozdika on 10/3/2007 at 09:15
The Haunts in T3 have these pervading high-pitched yells those in T1 lack. A Hammer Haunt in Fort Ironwood spotting me from a fair distance and charging in on shivering me, thats impressive. Too bad that the ample supply of flash bombs ussually spoils these moments. Unless I find myself in a space too cramped to throw that thing. Nasty surprise.
ToolFan2007 on 10/3/2007 at 11:51
Quote Posted by Jashin
I'm back from a few days of internet trouble.
I more or less see the situation clearly now - the purists are upset that T3 isn't the exact mirror image of Thief in all aspects (graphics, feature set, technology...). In short, it's not the game as they know it. Meaning when the dev broadened the range of options between totally passive and full-on aggressive, the purists snapped. It's the same basic scenario with 3rd-person pov - some just can't live with perfectly reasonable tenant of "just don't use it" and salem-witch-trialed the thing as a blasphemy to god.
The A.I. routine argument is a farce. If you enjoy getting stalked till judgment day + 1 and reloading that much, be my guest. That's one of the most un-player-friendly aspects in T1, that on the very first level and once discovered, I couldn't run away and the damned hammer chased me through the smudged underbelly of the mine till he caught me. T3 is easier granted, but it hasn't been made worse by extension. If the cornerstone of your Thief experience is "how hard it is" (subjective) and not
the atmosphere, the sounds, the characterizations, etc., then
you're responsible for that my friend. I know for a fact that I play for those above-mentioned.
A majority of the earlier Thief veterans on this board are scared of change. That's why Thief and Thief 2 go hand in hand and why they are bummed on a regular basis, they are so alike you can't dislike one if you're a fan of the other. To quote PC Zone, Thief 2 was more of an add-on then a new game. You can bet that any new addition to the series would be met with hatred and "lol!!! console noobies ruined the game!" comments. And look what happened in 2004. And in 2007 there's a poster who is STILL moaning about the same old stuff, quite funny really that this guy dedicated so much of his life to hating a game.
As much as I loved the original game back in 1998 and Thief 2 in 1999, when I replay those games I am greeted with very little but nostalgia. The original Thief has dated quite badly to be honest and as a result Thief 2 isn't much better as it plays almost the same but with more of a challenge. At least when I play Thief Deadly Shadows I can see the series has progressed and has been modernised which is certainly more than you could say about TMA when it came out.
