imperialreign on 11/3/2007 at 00:50
IMO, the few aspects of TDS that were newbie friendly, but seemd like a bit of an insult to the experienced player were the mission objectives; not only did that 'loot glint' make it easy to spot something a room over, but things like 'don't kill any non-combatants' shouldn't even have been there - leave that restriction for the 'hard' difficulty, not expert. It's fine to make the game easy on the lower settings, but the 'expert' difficulty could've been much harder and more tailored to those who would've played it that way right from the start. The 'training mission' was a little ridiculous, IMO, there should've been an option to skip the training aspect of it.
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There even is a greater variety in possible play-styles since there is a greater amount of equipment which leaves you with more choices.
I don't know about all that . . . T2 easily had more frivilous equipment available than TDS did.
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Thief has never been about pure stealth, there are swords and arrows. T3 made them a more viable option than in previous titles.
Stealth is still the modus operandi. It's when stealth botches and you're discovered that T3 allows for an effective action-oriented "out".
and which goes against the Thief design 'core' that was presented in T1/T2 - that it was encouraged to AVOID detection because it was harder to escape with your life. TDS presents the ideal that one need not worry as much about your actions, because if you're detected, you'll live to tell the tale, usually without a scratch. Garrett is supposed to be good, right? So why make him seem mediocre?
I mean . . . in T1/T2 if you were stuck in a bright room and heard footsteps, your first thought was "Shit! Shit! Where am I going to hide?!" as compared to being stuck in a brightly lit room and hearing footsteps in TDS where your first thoughts were more along the lines of "Oh, well, let me just ready this gas arrow . . ."
Jashin on 11/3/2007 at 07:08
Quote Posted by imperialreign
IMO, the few aspects of TDS that were newbie friendly, but seemd like a bit of an insult to the experienced player were the mission objectives; not only did that 'loot glint' make it easy to spot something a room over, but things like 'don't kill any non-combatants' shouldn't even have been there - leave that restriction for the 'hard' difficulty, not expert. It's fine to make the game easy on the lower settings, but the 'expert' difficulty could've been much harder and more tailored to those who would've played it that way right from the start. The 'training mission' was a little ridiculous, IMO, there should've been an option to skip the training aspect of it.
I don't know about all that . . . T2 easily had more frivilous equipment available than TDS did.
and which goes against the Thief design 'core' that was presented in T1/T2 - that it was encouraged to AVOID detection because it was harder to escape with your life. TDS presents the ideal that one need not worry as much about your actions, because if you're detected, you'll live to tell the tale, usually without a scratch. Garrett is supposed to be good, right? So why make him seem mediocre?
I mean . . . in T1/T2 if you were stuck in a bright room and heard footsteps, your first thought was "Shit! Shit! Where am I going to hide?!" as compared to being stuck in a brightly lit room and hearing footsteps in TDS where your first thoughts were more along the lines of "Oh, well, let me just ready this gas arrow . . ."
Haha, I'm tempted, very tempted to call you an idiot and be done with this Freudian argument of wrapping one truth in another, so I'm gonna do one of them.
The fact is, they could've made it a lot more "console friendly" than what ended up happening. It could've been a complete facelift. I feel that they catered too much to the hardcore sect and jeopardized their slim chance at success even more.
As for this supposed "insult" and some BS about gas arrow and no tutorial (It's part of the story?), that's slander desperately trying to disguise itself as an argument, and you even contradicted yourself (If T2 had more frivolous equipment than T3, then what's this nonsense about readying some gas arrow?). The choices are still all there, provided this time combat is an option when stealth fails. Evidently for newbies it fails constantly. All the equipments are in place for you to make any choices possible: the hardcores are able to hardcore, noobs can duke it out, and in-betweens can get better and better or not at all. Loot could've received some proper texturing, but it's kinda cool to spot something from the corner of the eye, etc., not an earth-shattering change that you can't live with.
And no, there isn't any less shadow in T3 than than previous titles. This dramatization of playing the blameless victim of T3 has overstated its welcome.
New Horizon on 11/3/2007 at 07:20
Quote Posted by Jashin
I hate it when people take my posts apart, and you don't know enough about what actually went on, so I'm just gonna say this: The game succeeded in its intention to be more newbie-friendly; the reasons why it failed commercially are many, including budget and deadline issues and problems with the engine rewrite.
Well, I was a moderator over on the Ion Boards...so I actually had the opportunity to have private discussions with some of the Devs and hear some of the things going on. So, I have a pretty good idea. The exact details of those conversations and who they were with...will remain confidential. What more should I know? Care to enlighten me? You appear to be insinuating that you know something the rest of us do not. I would love to hear any anecdotes you might have to share.
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The staunch hardcores are trying to desperately construe it as a sin to god, it isn't so. Feeling like you've been deprived of something that never existed is stupid and inevitable I'm afraid, since the original games are terrible material for a post-millennial sales-figure-conscious market with rising dev costs.
Staunch hardcores are doing nothing of the sort...that's simply your opinion. There were no sins against God, simply poor business and design decisions.
I don't feel deprived of anything. I paid full price for the game...out of a sense of loyalty. I wanted to believe that the game would not be as crippled as we feared. It turned out that I was unsatisfied, but I have moved on.
I've been trying to find enough energy to finish a final version of Minimalist Project and the T3Enhanced Editor, but to be quite honest...I just don't give enough of a damn about TDS to bother. I just don't feel it's worth the hassle.
If I have complaints about something...and if it means enough to me, I try to find a way to do something about it.
New Horizon on 11/3/2007 at 07:27
Quote Posted by Jashin
Haha, I'm tempted, very tempted to call you an idiot and be done with this Freudian argument of wrapping one truth in another, so I'm gonna do one of them.
The fact is, they could've made it a lot more "console friendly" than what ended up happening. It could've been a complete facelift. I feel that they catered too much to the hardcore sect and jeopardized their slim chance at success even more.
As for this supposed "insult" and some BS about gas arrow and no tutorial (It's part of the story?), that's slander desperately trying to disguise itself as an argument, and you even contradicted yourself (If T2 had more frivolous equipment than T3, then what's this nonsense about readying some gas arrow?). The choices are still all there, provided this time combat is an option when stealth fails. Evidently for newbies it fails constantly. All the equipments are in place for you to make any choices possible: the hardcores are able to hardcore, noobs can duke it out, and in-betweens can get better and better or not at all. Loot could've received some proper texturing, but it's kinda cool to spot something from the corner of the eye, etc., not an earth-shattering change that you can't live with.
And no, there isn't any less shadow in T3 than than previous titles. This dramatization of playing the blameless victim of T3 has overstated its welcome.
Jashin, are you capable of having an intelligent conversation without resorting to insults? Are you married to TDS, are you somehow emotionally attached to it?
After reading your last post, I'm through responding to you. You argue for limitation and mediocrity like it was the second coming of Christ.
Have you picked up a copy of the game "Stolen"? Should be right up your alley.
Jashin on 11/3/2007 at 08:38
Quote Posted by New Horizon
Jashin, are you capable of having an intelligent conversation without resorting to insults? Are you married to TDS, are you somehow emotionally attached to it?
After reading your last post, I'm through responding to you. You argue for limitation and mediocrity like it was the second coming of Christ.
Have you picked up a copy of the game "Stolen"? Should be right up your alley.
That's cute. Focus on the game, cus you're the one making the personal attacks while knowing nothing about me. It's no secret that in my last post I chose to be done with it instead of calling him an idiot.
You can plant your head in high ideals, ideals without legs to stand on the real world. I on the other hand take into consideration the full range of options, resources; I'm right there with the developers examining what's possible and what isn't at any given time. And when some aspect of the project gains momentum, good or bad, the outcome is very hard to change under duress of the projected timetable. This whole situation doesn't need anymore staunch purists in denial, it needs understanding and it needs to catch up to the changing tides of the times.
Gvozdika on 11/3/2007 at 09:33
Quote Posted by imperialreign
I don't know about all that . . . T2 easily had more frivilous equipment available than TDS did.
Which in turn made T2 a less serious and more cartoonish game than T3 in my eyes (slow-fall potions? ok...). Anyway, I was talking numbers of items available in a mission. You can start with plenty of any item and rely on this very item alone. Like having enough flashbombs to flash every single guard in the mission you come across. Good to see you seem to agree with everything else I said.
Gestalt on 11/3/2007 at 09:36
Not that I want to interfere with the Bi-Weekly Ion Storm Memorial Flamewar, but:
Quote Posted by New Horizon
I don't see them being scared of change at all Toolfan, they're not.
A few certainly are scared of change, though I wouldn't necessarily call it a majority. You've taken part in a few arguments yourself against cranks that were convinced TDM posed a threat to the community somehow because it would displace DromEd.
I haven't read much of the thread, so my apologies about the lack of context.
imperialreign on 11/3/2007 at 13:05
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The fact is, they could've made it a lot more "console friendly" than what ended up happening. It could've been a complete facelift. I feel that they catered too much to the hardcore sect and jeopardized their slim chance at success even more.
I don't think so . . . TDS appeared from the ground-up geared towards console players, POV camera movement was 3rd person, even from 1st - 1st POV seemed more an afterthought; graphically, the game held a double edged sword, it was great and beautiful, but at the same time seemed sub-par [maybe they wanted this effect, no one really knows]
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As for this supposed "insult" and some BS about gas arrow and no tutorial (It's part of the story?)
yeah, no shit the tutorial was part of the story; I was saying that they're should've been a harder difficulty setting that would've eliminated those fugly blue footsteps, and the blue tutorial screens and all - similar to how T2 removed most of the tutorial crap on 'expert' in "Running Interference"
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that's slander desperately trying to disguise itself as an argument, and you even contradicted yourself (If T2 had more frivolous equipment than T3, then what's this nonsense about readying some gas arrow?).
that comment I made was to say that in TDS, you didn't have to run first should you be noticed out in the open, unlike in T1/T2 where you knew it was your ass if you were caught. I was saying, you could be noticed by 3-4 guards in TDS, and manage to get away without losing any health; while in T1/T2 should the same situation occur, you were good as dead.
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The choices are still all there, provided this time combat is an option when stealth fails. Evidently for newbies it fails constantly. All the equipments are in place for you to make any choices possible: the hardcores are able to hardcore, noobs can duke it out, and in-betweens can get better and better or not at all.
Combat should never have really been an option - just an absolute last resort; that's what was presented in T1/T2; granted there was more equipment and all, you never knew how many guards would come running should you set off a fire arrow. TDS may have had a little less equipment than T2; but hell, you could carry more than enough stuff to have blasted your way out of Pavelock Prison - screw lockpicking the doors
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Loot could've received some proper texturing, but it's kinda cool to spot something from the corner of the eye, etc., not an earth-shattering change that you can't live with.
True, but I think the loot glint itself was a little too bright; but maybe that's just me . . .
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And no, there isn't any less shadow in T3 than than previous titles.
Never said there was.
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Haha, I'm tempted, very tempted to call you an idiot and be done with this Freudian argument of wrapping one truth in another, so I'm gonna do one of them.
Childish.
Xenith on 11/3/2007 at 13:16
I guess that most people think that DS isn't scary (compared to the other two games) because Garret has a whole lot more firepower that he can obtain fairly easy from shops. plus, by the time you have to encounter zombies and such, you already have a nice arsenal of undead killing (or other creatures) tools.
In thief 2 for example you started whit a pretty much fixed amount of items, even if you could buy some more at the stock screen. the thing is that if the map maker wouldn't want you to have flash bombs for that mission, you wouldn't be able to buy them and equipment never followed you from one mission into the other.
so, that's why I think that DS might not be so scary as people thought, since you can get any type of equipment that you see fit, even if the map maker would think that a certain tool would help a bit too much.
Dia on 11/3/2007 at 15:15
Quote Posted by Jashin
you're the one making the personal attacks
Right. Shall I refresh your memory?
Quote Posted by Jashin
I chose to be done with it instead of calling him an idiot.
Quote Posted by Jashin
You can plant your head in high ideals, ideals without legs to stand on the real world.
Quote Posted by Jashin
This is the kind of rotten attitude that caused the series to die ......And this train of thought isn't even original, you probably got it off of somebody else who posted this earlier.
Quote Posted by Jashin
....plant your head in high ideals, ideals without legs to stand on the real world
Quote Posted by Jashin
I'm tempted, very tempted to call you an idiot
Quote Posted by Jashin
you don't know enough about what actually went on
I'm with you, New Horizon. Not worth responding to anymore.
Quote Posted by New Horizon
I don't feel deprived of anything. I paid full price for the game...out of a sense of loyalty. I wanted to believe that the game would not be as crippled as we feared. It turned out that I was unsatisfied, but I have moved on.
Seconded.
