Vigo on 5/9/2006 at 22:46
The only places where the art direction worked imo were in the dingy run down places of the game. The Cradle, Kurshok, Hammerite factory, and the Abysmal Gale were all decent. But the mansion missions, especially Moira, felt completely uninspired and artistically under-designed.
Goldmoon Dawn on 5/9/2006 at 23:23
Quote Posted by themetalian
I didn't think the art direction was bland, I daresay. I thought it was more rich and gave the game more character.
Compared to Thief I, the art direction was bland in Deadly. The first games used all manner of unconventional design in the Missions. In the first game, every Mission had its own unique identity and atmosphere. I think the art in Deadly was generally more colorful, not to be confused with character. Also, some of the lost magic had to do with how "perfect" Deadly is. The gameplay itself is broken, of course, but the environments and graphical detail seem too perfect. Just like the maps in Deadly, everything is uniform for the first time. This boring level design lends a lot to the art direction appearing cartoonishly.
june gloom on 5/9/2006 at 23:33
and yet FM authors are striving towards better and more detailed maps that manage to wow us every time a new one comes out.
i vehemently disagree with you. if those exact same maps were for T2 what would your reaction be? "too perfect"?
ZylonBane on 6/9/2006 at 00:12
Quote Posted by themetalian
I didn't think the art direction was bland, I daresay. I thought it was more rich and gave the game more character.
Oh it had character all right. Unfortunately, that character was "Disney".
I'd say that the generally pastel, puffy art direction represented a fundamental confusion of concept on somebody's part at Ion Storm.
T-Smith on 6/9/2006 at 00:22
In terms of enviorment (besides being far too small and bright) I think Deadly Shadows looked great.
That however, it almost ruined by Garrett's drunken wobble, the horrible NPC animations, and the way everyone looks too cartoony.
Goldmoon Dawn on 6/9/2006 at 00:49
Quote Posted by dethtoll
and yet FM authors are striving towards better and more detailed maps that manage to wow us every time a new one comes out.
i vehemently disagree with you.
You will vehemently do nothing of the sort. Because once again, I am refering only to the commercial product known as Thief: Deadly Shadows (loosely billed as Thief III), not spawned fan works. I, like everyone else would hope that people would attempt to carry on with the Thief idea.
Quote Posted by dethtoll
if those exact same maps were for T2 what would your reaction be? "too perfect"?
The original Missions allowed the player to breathe. You could spend a lot of time wandering around exploring the amazing locations without seeing anyone. Sometimes in the Missions, you would end up in a cramped space, which could be fun sometimes in mansions but Deadly is that *all* the time. That forlorn, desolate feeling that pervaded the first two is sadly missing due to the cramped nature of the effort and lack of decent exploration tools and areas.
june gloom on 6/9/2006 at 00:54
you didn't actually answer my question.
Goldmoon Dawn on 6/9/2006 at 01:01
Regardless, the point is that Warren said the game would cater to the old fans. He made promises that he never answered.
Seriously, they were selling Thief III as an edge of the seat intense sneaking thrill ride. That doesnt match up with the more relaxed thought out approach of the first two. Then he shifted the project over to the console at some point, obviously. I have no beef with the designers or anyone. I just stand behind the Dark Project more, because it completely destroys Deadly in every way except.....
Graphics (capabilities)
:ebil:
Gnome on 6/9/2006 at 01:09
Quote Posted by ercles
You should really avoid statements like that, which lead you wide open, when you are talking to Zylon... in fact make that just in general on this forum.
As to the graphics, there were few "wow cool" moments as far as the first two games went visually... Although I loved them to death, there were many more breathtaking visual sections in TDS (I think it was overlook mansion which had the lightning affects through the windows).
Art direction is slightly different to just the quality of the graphics methinks... And in this respect I think TDS can at least hold a candle to TMA in a lot of ways. I just felt like I was seeing a lot of the same in the second game, especially in missions like Shipping and Recieving, Casing, the Bank, and inside the sub... But I wouldn't argue that it had slightly more of an atmosphere than the first game. But I say slightly, because I was one person who liked the walking between missions.
Hey, I liked walking between missions too. It made the game seem a little less linear, being able to roam small portions of the city and collecting loot from various households and cities. In fact, that was one of my favorite parts of the game. It would also relieve me from the stress of roaming spooky caverns and giant mansions where there were enemies roaming about that could kill me in a single hit or two. I liked being able to walk about without objectives to accomplish and being able to just explore to some extent. True, what you got to explore of the city wasn't very big, but I found it a fulfilling experience.
june gloom on 6/9/2006 at 01:17
to reiterate: i won't dispute with you that compared to the first two games it doesn't compare. however, i think it could have been a whole lot worse. as a standalone product, it's lacking. yet, ironically, it anally rapes 95% of its contemporaries, even if it still doesn't compare to classic thief. it's not a bad game by any means- i personally think it's excellent. architecture is top-notch, etc.
however, some things the game should have done:
body awareness, while i think it was an interesting idea, could have been tightened up a bit. i wouldn't get rid of it altogether. not unless i could keep the shadow that garrett casts when walking in front of a window or some other source of light. that was COOL.
making it third person was a bad idea. just... no.
the HUD. too much clutter.
making it a console game was a mistake too. not only because we have to suffer loading zones, but also because now there's 42035782390470 xbox dorks who pick it up and play it and love it but won't ever touch the first two and have no idea they even exist. then they come here and act like noobs and someone like ZB or myself has to get slaphappy.
the engine itself was fine, but horribly underoptimized.
the ragdoll physics. physics for props (bottles, etc.) is tolerable, but ragdoll physics is just... wtf?
the models needed work- their eyes bugged out a little too much for my liking.
one of my bigger complaints is they threw out most of the cool victorian-era stuff that thief 2 introduced. i also dislike that the city watch no longer wears the blue suits... but i can live with it. in general they threw everything back to what seemed like an even earlier period than thief 1 was, including in terms of dress.
there's some other things, but that's all i can think of off the top of my head. and you know what? i still play the game and i still love it. granted, i've only ever played it with the minimalist mod, and that's probably what's clouding my opinion. you'll notice that very little of what i listed has to do with any actual gameplay mechanics- those are largely unchanged from the original games. with the exception of rope arrows and swimming.
one thing the game does that i DO like is the way it doesn't COMPLETELY FORGET about the first two games- the eye being a good example, but even outside of the storyline, we hear nods to the earlier games. such as a hammer muttering to himself about karras.
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
Regardless, the point is that Warren said the game would cater to the old fans.
you know what the irony is? i had never even considered playing thief until after thief 3 came out. then i saw all kinds of reviews, both good and bad, and i knew that there were two earlier games. not wanting to hop in the third part of a story, i went and played the first game first... and loved it.
i think it's because of this that i can lump all three games together and love them equally, for all their respective pros and cons. i play them for love of thieving.
