voodoo47 on 16/3/2019 at 21:32
ah, missed that water is now not selected by default. it's a nice thing to have, maybe reconsider - I know this has potential to cause problems with FMs, those however should be minimized by adding a proper mtl. lets see whether I can produce it.
Jax64 on 16/3/2019 at 21:42
I tested the bank texture change with NecroAge and EP2 without issue. It should, in theory, work with any other texture pack because the only difference between wgrain01 and wgrain02 is that the former is half the resolution of the latter, something that should be acknowledged by any texture modification.
It seems that a new issue was reported on the fixed missions thread, which I suppose I can look into as well.
As for making certain objects unmantlable, it would probably only be advisable if they were per-mission fixes so as not to apply them to fan missions. Though even then, I doubt many people here would appreciate such restrictions. I will wholeheartedly fix anything as long as it is desired, but many here have made it known that they do not want mantling changes.
EDIT:
Absolutely. I should be able to fix most of these as soon as time permits, provided they are still present.
Quote Posted by voodoo47
ah, missed that water is now not selected by default. it's a nice thing to have, maybe reconsider - I know this has potential to cause problems with FMs, those however should be minimized by adding a proper mtl. lets see whether I can produce it.
I am always open to consideration, but at the same time I do understand that t2water can cause issues with fan missions (if the proper amount of frames are not specified in an mtl). I agree that it would be a nice thing to have, but I do not want to cause issues with fan missions that were not created with this in mind.
voodoo47 on 16/3/2019 at 21:55
this is not so simple - the catch here is that by running under ND with new_mantle, changes are actually introduced - things previously not mantleable will become mantleable. unless they are made non-mantleable again by the global dml. anyway, as mentioned, this is not an awfully big deal either way (all I can add is that the potential for actually breaking something is very low, and that TFix has been doing this for a while, with zero issues reported).
(
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rIsTE7DTDxfA-O3KUXqBy_kyG8JZ7WKl/view?usp=sharing) the water mtls, they go to the \MODS\t2water\FAM\WATERHW folder (extract).
also ok on the replaced textures then.
//FM people, you know what would be of actual help right now? a FM that has issues with the hires water (TG or T2), so I could check how things behave (and whether this can be made bulletproof).
//ok, created a testmap, and I can confirm that even with the mtls at place, if the FM author included customized water textures that have the same name as vanilla resources (= bad practice) in their fan mission, and didn't add a proper mtl (= bad practice), then the hires water mod will not be compatible. so yeah, if you want to be really safe here, keep water unchecked by default. but this begs the question of how much one would want to cater to those who are causing incompatibilities by not doing things right.
Yandros on 17/3/2019 at 01:46
This conversation has been very interesting and I think beneficial to Jax64, and it has been (mostly) pretty civil, so you all have this mod's thanks for engaging in discussion and disagreement without flinging shit at each other. Much.
As someone whose real life job includes designing software interfaces, I would just like to point out that it is very possible for any given component in the patcher to not be On or Off by default. You just replace checkboxes with comboboxes which default to "Make a selection..." and don't allow them proceed until all have been set one way or the other. More clicks required of the user, in many cases, but it's trivial to do that one time, and you are requiring them to make a conscious decision about each component and not blindly accept default selections made by the patcher author.
Jax64 on 17/3/2019 at 03:58
I could not agree more. I am very grateful for the discussion taking place here, as it has helped me better understand what is wanted from an all-in-one patcher such as this.
As for using combo boxes, I believe it is an option worth considering. I shall look into this.
I originally had a system in place in which the user selected an installation type that corresponded to a certain group of components, such as "Complete Installation" or "Recommended Installation", though later removed it to clean up the interface.
Quote Posted by bassoferrol
I found these some time ago.
Can you check them?
I have finished fixing all the issues that you had logged and the new fixed missions will be included in the next T2Fix build.
For anyone interested, the missions with the aforementioned changes may be downloaded (
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mRy_im1Z9yihF_BkuIYWu7U_uZbAaNek) here. Do keep in mind that only the missions that were changed are included, so be sure to have AM16's Thief2 Fixed 1.2d installed prior to using them.
Quote Posted by voodoo47
this is not so simple - the catch here is that by running under ND with new_mantle, changes are actually introduced - things previously not mantleable will become mantleable. unless they are made non-mantleable again by the global dml. anyway, as mentioned, this is not an awfully big deal either way (all I can add is that the potential for actually breaking something is very low, and that TFix has been doing this for a while, with zero issues reported).
...
//ok, created a testmap, and I can confirm that even with the mtls at place, if the FM author included customized water textures that have the same name as vanilla resources (= bad practice) in their fan mission, and didn't add a proper mtl (= bad practice), then the hires water mod will not be compatible. so yeah, if you want to be really safe here, keep water unchecked by default. but this begs the question of how much one would want to cater to those who are causing incompatibilities by not doing things right.
New mantle does certainly change the mantling behavior. I do think it would add some polish to include changes to accommodate for these, which is why I originally proposed the idea, but many here have said that they do not wish to see them implemented. Fan missions are, again, a major factor to consider in this. I would have to be very careful in deciding what to change, as some NewDark FMs undoubtedly require mantling on some objects that were impossible to previously. I can look into implementing such changes, but I certainly do not want to break FMs as a result. T2water is in a similar situation. While it may be bad practice to implement custom resources this way, many FMs have. Ideally, t2water would not cause issues, in which case it would be selected by default. I'm still deliberating over this, but the current selection should suffice until I either find a solution or otherwise make a decision.
voodoo47 on 17/3/2019 at 07:30
it would be interesting to see the actual numbers, but I'm guessing nobody is keeping a list (of FMs with improperly set up water).
also, keeping a full changelog would be prudent, if you are getting into tweaking the fixed missions some more.
voodoo47 on 17/3/2019 at 15:41
ah, one more thing that would be good to have - an unique OM mission fingerprint in each level. basically a quest variable that would positively identify all original missions as a T2 OMs.
example - type
Code:
quest_create_mis T2origmis,1
in the Dromed command window and hit enter (for each mission). this will allow easier (and safer) dml modding (TFix is using origmis,1). I will fingerprint the candle mission dmls once/if this is added.
Yandros on 17/3/2019 at 21:02
Quote Posted by Jax64
I originally had a system in place in which the user selected an installation type that corresponded to a certain group of components, such as "Complete Installation" or "Recommended Installation", though later removed it to clean up the interface.
This is a good idea, although I would suggest naming them more descriptively. For instance, "Vanilla Installation: Engine and critical fixes only" and "Minor Graphics: Vanilla + Some basic graphics improvements" and "Everything: Vanilla + all available enhancements". The names and descriptions clearly indicate what they are choosing (well, at a high level) and you could also offer a "Manual Install" option where they choose On or Off for every bundled enhancement aside from NewDark. Those non-manual types could also simply pre-select values for all the combo boxes so they could select each one and see what it enabled/disabled from the full Manual list.
just some idea's i had
