Jax64 on 11/3/2019 at 20:14
Quote Posted by voodoo47
how are the original executables handled? remember, cam.cfg cannot be shared between oldDark and NewDark, and saves should be separate as well, so some hexediting will be required if you want to mirror what TFix is doing. //installed the latest build with the original executables checked, and it seems like everything is set up and working. nice, but hoo-boy, oldDark sure is rough on the eyes and fingers.
Yes, the legacy executables are handled almost exactly as TFix does. The only notable difference being the version of ddfix being used. TFix seems to an older version similar to the one Steam uses, and T2Fix currently uses ddfix 1.5.12, which was the newest version I was able to find.
Ha, yes, OldDark is not particularly pretty these days. I would only recommend using them if your uses require it, or if all else fails. They are certainly not recommended for average users.
Quote Posted by Psych0sis
I think trying to change a game to accommodate for something the community introduced that wasn't entirely necessary is a dangerous path to walk down. Also leaving such changes and any other subjective enhancements as auto-enabled is very, very poor design choice.
On another note, I just noticed the mod has AM16's resource package, which also is problematic. It changes around the level triggers on some levels and also makes all metal doors unbashable/blow up-able, which was an
intended mechanic and deprives the player of an option of strategy through the level, unless its been changes since then.
I do value feedback such as this, as it is important to consider all points of view on this matter. I agree with your first point. In order for any changes made to accommodate NewDark, I would need an outstanding reason to do so. It is completely possible (and rather likely at this point) that the changes relating to mantling on objects will not be implemented in the final version following what some here have said, many of which are valid points. While I may think this behavior would be for the benefit of the game, that may not actually be the case. As for the default component selection, I am trying to represent the majority of users. Perhaps the current configuration is not indicative of that, but this is the conclusion I have reached currently. I suppose I could disselect such enhancement packages by default, but that would only leave only NewDark and other essential fixes enabled. I understand that some want as close to a vanilla experience as possible, especially those who make fan missions or speedrunners. However, much in the same way, some want the game to look as pretty as possible. The enhanced skies and water especially seem to retain the style of the original resources. It is a matter of trying to balance these two philosophies. Do keep in mind that all components other than NewDark are fully optional, making the issue the default configuration rather than what is actually installed.
Going on to your other point, I do believe this fixed missions still exhibit this behavior. It is likely that I will end up further editing the fixed missions, as I have already made some very minor changes such as properly aligning some textures. While I do not know if this new behavior is intentional, I would be reluctant to change this under normal circumstances. AM16's pack, I believe, would be beneficial for most players. Though again, the package is completely optional. Until this is decided, it is possible to simply not install the fixed missions if you see fit.
voodoo47 on 11/3/2019 at 20:22
the main point I would make with the loadout screen is that people who know that they don't want certain components know exactly what they don't want, and will have little problem deselecting things in seconds, while regular people just have the vague idea of "making the game pretty", so not having anything pre-selected means forcing them to go through all the descriptions and letting them figure out what's what on their own, and this will be annoying and time consuming. so leaving most stuff pre-selected for the general public is the right thing to do, I'd say.
JarlFrank on 11/3/2019 at 20:39
Quote Posted by voodoo47
that wasn't an argument, just a suggestion - I also do it here and there (SS2). and yes, TFix makes a lot of stuff unmantleable (that was not mantleable in oldDark), like, a LOT. no reports of broken stuff so far..
ok, the way I see it, there are two routes that can be taken, both are very valid - you either accept the patcher as the backbone and start to construct your FMs with it in mind, or simply tell people who are interested in playing your fm that using the lite version of the patcher is a hard requirement. I don't mind either way.
So what you're saying here is "I accept that my patcher might break some FMs made specifically for NewDark, and I don't care about it"?
Renault on 11/3/2019 at 20:42
Quote Posted by voodoo47
the main point I would make with the loadout screen is that people who know that they don't want certain components know
exactly what they don't want, and will have little problem deselecting things in seconds, while regular people just have the vague idea of "making the game pretty", so not having anything pre-selected means forcing them to go through all the descriptions and letting them figure out what's what on their own, and this will be annoying and time consuming. so leaving most stuff pre-selected for the general public is the right thing to do, I'd say.
I always thought the point of the patch (and Tafferpatcher before it, and New Dark in general) is to "fix" Thief so it is playable on modern computers. It's not supposed to be a graphics update. The fact that you can do that is just a bonus.
voodoo47 on 11/3/2019 at 20:53
TFix has always been a collection of mods glued together first by DDFix, and later NewDark. as mentioned, an answer to the "I want the game to run ok and look smoother" question.
Quote Posted by JarlFrank
So what you're saying here is "I accept that my patcher might break some FMs made specifically for NewDark, and I don't care about it"?
if you mean "I accept that my patcher might break some FMs that weren't designed to be compatible with it", then yes, there is little I can do.
JarlFrank on 11/3/2019 at 21:10
Quote Posted by voodoo47
if you mean "I accept that my patcher might break some FMs that weren't designed to be compatible with it", then yes, there is little I can do.
You mean, your patcher isn't designed to be compatible with some FMs, since some of the changes you introduce hadn't been in it back when NewDark was released. An FM made for newdark, designed around new mantle working the way it does in unmodified newdark, released in 2015, couldn't be designed to be compatible with some features of your patcher because they hadn't been part of it back then.
You cannot make FM authors
retroactively responsible to make sure their FMs are compatible with a patcher. And even then, generally speaking, a patcher which is pinned in the forums as THE go-to patcher to make Thief run hassle free on modern systems shouldn't make major changes like that which have the potential to break some newer FMs. The point of it should be to make Thief run well and without hiccups, not to alter certain gameplay elements, no?
A better solution would be to have the patcher disable new mantle by default, if that is possible, rather than changing the properties of objects to no longer respond to new mantle and therefore changing a gameplay element of newdark that may have been used by some FM authors long before this particular change became part of the patch.
voodoo47 on 11/3/2019 at 21:21
what I meant is that if the fm author's position is that "the only way of playing my fm properly as intended is to make sure no additional resources are used, so no models, no skies, no texture packs, no nothing" then I can't help in any way, vs "I've checked it with TFix full and it's fine, just disable the hires water" (the way of disabling the water is already provided*). there are no changes that would break older ND missions and warrant fm authors to go back to update them so they would work again, that'd be nuts.
generally, FMs should have little problem running in the TFix environment, oldDark, old NewDark, new NewDark.. there are always edge case scenarios where things might break (especially if we are talking Dark1), which may be caused by a variety of things, one of them being something TFix is doing. again, should be very rare, and if something like that is found and reported, I usually fix it within hours.
T2 should have less of these problems, as NewDark runs it natively.
*the extra water frames of the hires water causing visual glitches have been mentioned - the actual proper solution to this is to include a mtl that would specify the number of frames of your custom animated resource. in times of NewDark, I would consider this good practice. same goes for other custom resources - if they are custom/new, they should have proper new names (meaning, if your fm has lizard people who are reskinned hammerites, the new custom mesh texture should NOT have the same name as the vanilla hammerite texture). again, just good practice that saves headaches later, nothing more.
bassoferrol on 11/3/2019 at 22:34
People who don´t like this have something called NewDark.zip.
It´s so simple.
voodoo47 on 12/3/2019 at 14:20
also, there is the question of gamesysless FMs - basically fan missions that don't have a gamesys of their own, and use the default T2 gamesys. that means they will use the overhauled gamesys once the AM16 pack is loaded, and while this will undoubtedly provide benefits (fixed stuff) in most cases, there's definitely going to be that one fm where the author got creative in some unexpected way and things will break as result.
TFix was using a default gamesys name (dark.gam) at first, so gamesysless FMs were using the updated gamesys, but there were some problem reports, so in the end, I've renamed it to tfix.gam (and made all OMs use that) so it would only load for OMs, and provided the latest official dark.gam for use with gamesysless FMs. that means compatibility increased to max, but all those missions who did benefit from the fixes earlier now don't.
I have to admit that I have no idea how many gamesysless T2 FMs are out there though - but if I had to recommend something, I would lightly lean towards the custom gamesys that would load for OMs only. safer is better in this particular case, I think.
Jax64 on 12/3/2019 at 19:17
Actually, running T2Fix with nothing selected (other than NewDark, of course) is roughly equivalent to the NewDark archive.
I have conducted some tests with the fixed missions gamesys. I did test several "gamesys-less" FMs, none of which had any issue using the fixed gamesys. It would be excellent to perhaps have a list of changes, though I have not noticed any obvious changes from the 1.18 gamesys. I suppose that it would eliminate any chance of issue to use the default gamesys for FMs similar to TFix, but I do not currently see any reason to do this with current evidence. Though, if there is a factor I am not aware of, I would appreciate being made known of it.
Regarding an earlier concern about its changes, I have found that it is only possible to destroy metal doors with explosives only with the 1.07 version of the gamesys. It is likely many people have this version due to the hybrid 1.07/1.18 versions that are in circulation. With the full, official 1.18 gamesys, this ability was removed, likely intentionally. Therefore, it is not due to the fixed missions that this behavior is exhibited. Due to its exclusion in the latest official release, it would probably not be appropriate for me to revert this change. Players who rely on this strategy are free to use the old gamesys, but it would stand to reason that a patching utility would utilize the latest version of any official components.
Moving along, I would like to make a decision regarding the default components. I am considering three options:
1) Deselecting all optional components by default, resulting in an extremely compatible and vanilla installation.
2) Selecting only the fixed missions by default due to the important fixes it provides which ideally shouldn't have any compatibility issues.
3) Selecting the fixed missions, Carry Body Mod, t2skies, t2water, and EP by default, providing a pretty, appealing default selection, though may potentially cause issues with some FMs.
