Vasquez on 3/7/2013 at 16:07
I think mopgoblin is talking about this:
Quote Posted by Phatose
Deliberately conceiving to abort, no. Knowingly risking conception and thus being responsible for it, yes. If the pregnancy wasn't unwanted enough to forgo sex, it's hard to expect anyone uninvolved to forgo their lives because of it.
And to this comment it
is relevant to point out there are lots of women who not only are denied the choice to have contraception or abortion, but the choice of having or not having sex isn't their own either.
mopgoblin on 3/7/2013 at 16:14
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
If you can't tell that dismissing someone based on their gender is utterly idiotic then that chip on your shoulder must be so big its edging your brain out.
And I'm not a pro-lifer at all. I hate that term actually, it's anti-abortion and anti-choice. So this is quite amusing to me - you and dethtoll are both on my side but by the tone of your arguments it seems that its just a coincidence for him and a necessity for you.
Mate, keeping men's influence out of decisions like this is the only option which has any real potential to be safe. In the
extremely unlikely event that we find that there are men out there who somehow have some sort of expertise on this that no women have... well, we'll come to you. But without that super-special knowledge, you're just a guy who seems to have a thing for talking down to women, and those are in no short supply. You and I might both be pro-choice, but we're not
really on the same side until you cut the misogyny, and
even then you're only a supporting character. Deal with it.
Phatose on 3/7/2013 at 16:33
Quote Posted by mopgoblin
Maybe the reason men don't get to choose is because it's, you know, not their body! It's almost like we discussed this at some point!
No, we were in fact still in the discussion of whether or not it's your body, or your body plus someone else's.
Quote:
Dude, seriously, sort out your shit. In addition to your favourite hobby of trying to control women's bodies by preventing abortion, you anti-choice fuckers are
constantly fighting tooth and nail to destroy sex education programmes, interfere with women's access to contraception and sterilisation, destroy programmes that oppose rape and domestic violence, and further undermine survivors' already minimal chances of getting rapists and abusers convicted, to name but a few.
I'm not actually anti-choice at all. In fact, I'm quite pro-choice. That does not mean I should accept a piss-poor rationale for being pro-choice as valid when it's not.
Quote:
Anti-choicers are anti-woman. I mean, you're basically arguing right here that men engaging in predatory behaviour is not a serious issue, in a society where at least 17% of women are raped in their lifetime and where men commit the overwhelming majority (~99%) of rapes. In fact, you've packed enough ignorance into what's basically a two sentence post that I had to use a year's supply of bullet points to illustrate it:
* High school sex education is in a shocking state in much of the US, and may focus on abstinence rather than convey accurate information
* Some people will indeed have "missed that day at school" if their parents are able to stop them from attending
* Contraception is not readily available in all areas or to all people, and often costs money that some people don't have
* Having contraceptives is not always safe if they canot be hidden from controlling partners and/or parents
* All contraceptive methods have failure rates, these typically vary by usage and that information may not be readily available or presented in a clear manner
* Some men sabotage contraception and this is not always obvious or detectable
* Men can and sometimes do lie about the chance of pregnancy (one look at the Google autocompletes for "you can't get pregnant" should illustrate a range of the myths used)
* Saying "no" to an insistent or aggressive person who is heavier, taller, stronger, alone with you, or who has more social power, economic power, or privilige than you is not always easy, safe, or effective.
To most women, men tend to be several of these things* Women in abusive relationships in particular often don't have a real option to say "no" to sex or to have that respected
* Women in abusive relationships don't have necessarily have safe, private access to the internet or to libraries
* As a group, men
are complete shitbags towards women, and they have the power to back up that shitbaggery. This is indisputable, and the notion that we shouldn't use that as a starting point for analysis is, at best, absurd
* This probably isn't even all of the things, but there's only so much I'm willing to type out for you, so
Congratulations, you've established that the anti-choice movement are anti-women. That does not make them wrong. So are you quite done with your Ad Hominems, and maybe we can get back to actually discussing the issue?
Quote:
I'll go over the most important one: regardless of context,
consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy, and furthermore
use or attempted use of contraception, successful or not, is an indication that there is no consent to pregnancyThis one here? Bullshit. Flat out complete and total bullshit. If a man comes into a paternity test and says "Well, I consented to the sex but not having a baby.", they will be laughed out of court. Consent to take part in a behavior which knowingly risks a particular outcome is consent to that outcome.
Phatose on 3/7/2013 at 16:46
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Yeah, I agree somewhat Phatose - that is a totally unjustified rant against men. Sure, there are men like that but to choose to frame an abortion debate that affects everyone through the window of scumbag men is anything but sensible.
Actually, the sexism I was talking about was the anti-woman tone. Portraying women as helpless victims, with no actual say in their own behavior at all.
Quote Posted by Vasquez
I think mopgoblin is talking about this:
And to this comment it
is relevant to point out there are lots of women who not only are denied the choice to have contraception or abortion, but the choice of having or not having sex isn't their own either.
Yes, Rape is a special case, and deserves special consideration because of that. Absolutely the truth, I agree totally. I daresay, however, that most abortions are not performed on Rape victims, and the exception for the Rape victim is not an exception for everyone.
Vivian on 3/7/2013 at 17:05
Quote Posted by Phatose
If a man comes into a paternity test and says "Well, I consented to the sex but not having a baby.", they will be laughed out of court. Consent to take part in a behavior which knowingly risks a particular outcome is consent to that outcome.
Really? That fucking sucks if it's true. I don't think it is though. Consenting to get in a car is not consenting to die in a crash, for instance.
Phatose on 3/7/2013 at 17:41
Quote Posted by Vivian
Really? That fucking sucks if it's true. I don't think it is though. Consenting to get in a car is not consenting to die in a crash, for instance.
True.
Should rephrase that "Consenting to engage in a risky behavior implies acceptance of the possible consequences."
SubJeff on 3/7/2013 at 18:25
Phatose is right though, the man would be laughed out of court.
This is like moaning if you get a broken collar bone whilst playing rugby.
june gloom on 3/7/2013 at 18:34
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
The policy makers should be a mixed gender group
Stop trying to inject men into this. The only ones who should be making policy re: abortion are the people who can give birth. Shayde is right in that you keep trying to make this a female-inclusive issue rather than a female-centric issue. Are you just that much of a narcissist that you need to inject yourself (by way of injecting gender) into this?
SubJeff on 3/7/2013 at 18:38
Don't you think men have something to contribute? What about post-menopausal women? Infertile women?
june gloom on 3/7/2013 at 18:43
How many times do I have to say this, you mentalist? No, I really don't.
IF YOU ARE NOT CAPABLE OF BIRTHIN' BABIES YOUR OPINION DOES NOT AND SHOULD NOT MATTER.
It's just that simple. It's not a debatable issue.