Vasquez on 3/7/2013 at 19:19
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Abortion legislation should be left to women.
This wouldn't lead to consensus over the matter, though. Some of the most rabid anti-abortion people I've met have been women. And they often don't even provide pseudoscience to support their views, but some weird religious babble or new-ageish "mama earth, life is in the seed" -shit.
SubJeff on 3/7/2013 at 19:22
And citing rape as the number one reason for legalising abortion is just nuts.
Phatose on 3/7/2013 at 19:26
Quote Posted by Vasquez
Good! So only the women who willingly have sex and end up with unwanted pregnancy (whether it's because contraceptive fails or isn't used at all) deserve to be burdened with a child? Because you're making a baby sound awful lot like a punishment for a sin or something :)
I'm making it sound like that pregnancy is a direct consequence of their own actions. If there's a price to be paid for those actions, it should be paid by the people who chose to take those actions, not the fetus who was not given a choice in the matter.
And no, it's not punishment for a sin or anything like that. If there's a way to get out of this where everybody comes up smelling like daisies, that's super cool with me.
However, there's a bit of a question about whether or not that fetus is a person or not. If it is, then abortion is actually punishing that fetus for decisions it had no part in.
I don't like the idea of punishing a woman by forcing her to carry to term because she made bad decisions and/or got unlucky. But I like the idea of killing a fetus because she made bad decisions and/or got unlucky a hell of a lot less.
faetal on 3/7/2013 at 19:28
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Just because people who can't give birth are going to have opinions about abortion doesn't mean those opinions matter or should matter. But no, we've got a bunch of stuffy old white men spouting pseudoscience and using it as a pretext to enforce greater controls over women's bodies. Todd Akin's "shut that whole thing down" remark wasn't an isolated incident. That sort of belief is absolutely endemic to anti-choicers, including the politicians. Abortion legislation should be left to women. That will never happen, though, so the real solution is to just legalize abortion, free and clear, no fucking arguments about it. And the biggest reason why? Rape. As long as there is rape (and there will always be rape, because people are horrible) abortion should be legal. It's as simple as that.
Dethtoll, calm the fuck down, seriously. This "I am the only guy here who remotely gets women" act is tiresome. It is rubbishing the debate when someone draws an arbitrary line in the sand and then declares anyone who deviates from that line as a sexist - it means that all counter debate has to first overcome the "here's why I'm not sexist" hurdles before getting down to discussion. It's intellectually weak and acts as a
de facto ad hominem to anyone who doesn't say "DETHTOLL IS RIGHT", by assuming right away that they are sexist. Taking points on merit and refuting them using actual counter-points works better.
Are you saying that e.g. a male developmental neuroscientist shouldn't have a say? Of course abortion should exist and that's why IT DOES EXIST. It's only a ridiculous cadre of idiot religious nuts trying to reel it in because they have some asinine notion that god puts a soul into a cluster of cells the moment they start to divide, so long as those cells are of human origin. This idea that only women can have any form of input AT ALL EVER is over-egging the pudding. The fact that abortion should be allowed and should in fact be a basic right IS BASED ON WOMEN HAVING THIS DECISION. However, the input whereby the time limit is introduced CAN NOT BE DECIDED BASED ON THE SAME CRITERIA, because there are different medical implications, so being a woman is no longer the best qualifier for reaching a decision. If you're somehow suggesting that only female developmental biologists should have a say because men can't possibly understand foetal development on account of not having a womb, that you are entitled to the world's largest eyes rolling emoticon.
You're 99% of the time making good points eloquently, but this "you disagree because you hate women" knee-jerk is patronising and tedious. You're using gigantic straw men like Todd Akin - no one here thinks that these nutjobs should have any input. Also, no one here is saying they are against abortion, so I don't get what your last post was really about. Perhaps living in the US getting to you.
Vasquez on 3/7/2013 at 19:45
Quote Posted by Phatose
not the fetus who was not given a choice in the matter.
A fetus can't be given a choice, because it doesn't have any cognitive activity to form an opinion. And comparing men and women in this matter doesn't work either; no man can be forced to be a father, he can get away just by paying child support. Of course, the woman can give the baby to adoption, but before that she's been through 9 months of hell that is unwanted pregnancy and childbirth.
faetal on 3/7/2013 at 19:50
Am I missing the part where Phatose said he was anti-choice?
Vasquez on 3/7/2013 at 19:52
He didn't say that, I'm just nitpicking his later posts ;)
faetal on 3/7/2013 at 19:57
Ah right. I'm just finding it odd how everyone in this thread seems to be pro-choice and lots of the counter-argument seems to be about women having the right to an abortion. I think we're all totally in synch about people like Rick Perry, Todd Aiken etc... not being entitled to be involved with the decisions, unless they are doing so to represent their female constituents (pretty clear to all and sundry that's not the case) as well. Seems like what we're arguing mainly in here is whether abortion is anything to do with men whatsoever. So far, I find myself in the "not really, except where medical / scientific input comes in and then its a level playing field" camp.
Vasquez on 3/7/2013 at 19:58
Yes, we all mainly agree, but everyone agreeing openly wouldn't make an interesting thread!
Phatose on 3/7/2013 at 19:59
Quote Posted by Vasquez
A fetus can't be given a choice, because it doesn't have any cognitive activity to form an opinion. And comparing men and women in this matter doesn't work either; no man can be forced to be a father, he can get away just by paying child support. Of course, the woman can give the baby to adoption, but before that she's been through 9 months of hell that is unwanted pregnancy and childbirth.
Exactly. It can't be given a choice. It doesn't even exist at that point, so it bear no responsibility for the choices that were made.
And yeah, it sucks for the mother in that case.
But exchanging her 9 months of hell for the outright death of anther person who wasn't involved in the decision at all? That's even worse.
Quote Posted by faetal
Ah right. I'm just finding it odd how everyone in this thread seems to be pro-choice and lots of the counter-argument seems to be about women having the right to an abortion. I think we're all totally in synch about people like Rick Perry, Todd Aiken etc... not being entitled to be involved with the decisions, unless they are doing so to represent their female constituents (pretty clear to all and sundry
that's not the case) as well. Seems like what we're arguing mainly in here is whether abortion is anything to do with men whatsoever. So far, I find myself in the "not really, except where medical / scientific input comes in and then its a level playing field" camp.
It's not even about whether they have the right to an abortion as far as I can tell. We all seem to agree that they do, at the very least most of the time.
It's about why they have that right. That claim is going to come under constant attack, so I want it to be logically sound. That's all.
