Vivian on 2/7/2013 at 22:38
Well yeah. I agree. Not much to debate, really.
SubJeff on 2/7/2013 at 22:41
I understand where you're coming from dethtoll, and women should certainly be involved in the discussion and listened to, but saying that because men do not give birth that they should have no input at all is very silly.
Vivian on 2/7/2013 at 22:44
There's helping inform a decision, and there's making a decision, though. And while dudes can by all means help provide data etc (and more annoyingly spam morality about it, I guess), ultimately it's a decision that should be made by the people most directly involved.
june gloom on 2/7/2013 at 22:53
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
I understand where you're coming from dethtoll, and women should certainly be involved in the discussion and listened to, but saying that because men do not give birth that they should have no input at all is very silly.
I love how you worded that in such a way that you imply that the ultimate decision rests with men. Now, whether you meant it that way or not is up in the air (I can never tell with you) but the fact of the matter is, dudes have no right to a place in the discussion. As Vivian said, we can help provide data, but the ultimate decision -- indeed, the actual act of
discussing a woman's self-agency over her own body -- is best left to women and women alone. Restrictions on abortion are not something that will ever affect people who can't get pregnant.
They will never have to face that bullet. That includes me. That includes you. That includes basically almost everyone on this forum.
SubJeff on 2/7/2013 at 22:55
Quote Posted by Vivian
There's helping inform a decision, and there's making a decision, though. And while dudes can by all means help provide data etc (and more annoyingly spam morality about it, I guess), ultimately it's a decision that should be
made by the people most directly involved.
I disagree. I think the decision is best made by the people who are best informed. You can extrapolate this to many laws and policies - they are not made by the people they will most affect. The only difference here is you have a very clear delineation re: who is
directly affected. And even then you can argue that fathers and other children and indeed the extended family are affected, often directly (if you don't want to get into the definition of directly).
june gloom on 2/7/2013 at 22:58
Actually the decision should be made by the person whose body is being discussed. i.e. the woman considering the abortion.
Anyone else want to try?
SubJeff on 2/7/2013 at 22:59
Quote Posted by dethtoll
I love how you worded that in such a way that you imply that the ultimate decision rests with men.
If done no such thing.
Quote:
the ultimate decision -- indeed, the actual act of
discussing a woman's self-agency over her own body -- is best left to women and women alone.
I disagree. Being a woman gives you a unique perspective but it does not give you all the facts.
Quote:
Restrictions on abortion are not something that will ever affect people who can't get pregnant.
If there are restrictions that affect my wife don't you think that also affects me, and our other children?
june gloom on 2/7/2013 at 23:07
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
If done no such thing.
That is exactly what you did.
Quote:
I disagree. Being a woman gives you a unique perspective but it does not give you all the facts.
That "unique perspective" is "the perspective of the person whose body is being discussed." Unless you're capable of birthin' babies
YOUR OPINION DOESN'T MATTER. You don't get to tell other people what they can do with their own bodies. "Best informed" in this case would be "people who can get pregnant." YOU ARE NOT ON THAT LIST. YOU DON'T GET A SAY. They know better than anyone else what kind of stuff they'd be facing. YOU DON'T. You can sit there and tell me yes you do, and you will, because you're a freaking mentalist who has to argue an indefensible viewpoint
TO THE DEATH but this isn't opinion vs. opinion it is narcissist vs. REALITY and I'm not going to engage with you on this anymore. You are objectively wrong. End of discussion.
Quote:
If there are restrictions that affect my wife don't you think that also affects me, and our other children?
Nope! A wedding doesn't give you control of her uterus! Next silly question?
Briareos H on 2/7/2013 at 23:11
The "REALITY" is that everyone discusses it whether you like it or not and the "REALITY" is that the people who take the decisions are both women and men.
If you don't like it fine, that's a nice battle to pick, however irrelevant.
june gloom on 2/7/2013 at 23:12
The reality is that you're French. And the reality is that just because some dude has an opinion about abortion doesn't mean it's valid.
