uncadonego on 23/4/2021 at 02:31
I just finished playing Raven Creek, and man, it was so expansive and so beautiful. Don't think I'm complaining about such a fine campaign or singling it out. It just made me realize a couple things that come up with some newer FM's
One thing I missed in the campaign was the equipment store between missions.
Of course, the missions were so loaded with loot, it made an equipment store moot.
If you collect so much loot that you could buy out the whole equipment store, what is the point?
The equipment store was part of the original game's strategy. From the previous mission, you had your cash to buy equipment for the next.
This not only rewarded you for finding as much loot in the previous mission as possible, but you had limited cash, so had to choose your store purchases according to what was available and your personal play style. Those purchases could end up being rewarding or not. For example, if you decided not to spend loot in the loadout store on all those moss arrows, but then ended up in the next mission with a lot of tile that had to be crossed quickly....
Anyway, large missions are awesome, but a piece of the OM's was limited amounts of loot to be used for equipment for the next mission.
Just go ahead and share your thoughts on this aspect of the newer FM's, or anything else that has comes to your mind regarding things that need to be kept in mind with building newer FM's, vis-a-vis not losing some of the spirit of the OM's by FM builders.
Somewhat in the spirit of: "We can do this, but should we?"
Bosh on 23/4/2021 at 07:22
I do love a store, either between missions or a store I can visit in-game - and always appreciate an author's effort in doing it. If there is no motivation for me to collect loot other than to tick off a loot objective, I will only concentrate on collecting the required loot to complete that objective but am personally not fussed about finding any more. However, if I know there is a store, I will make more effort to find as much as I can. But that's just how I deal with that. I also like being able to buy tips.
I also like it when weapons/arrows/tools carry over into the next mission in a campaign (except for good reason, like you've been caught and put in jail, of course).
The other thing I always appreciate that the OMs did so well is a good map. Automaps are brilliant, especially when exploring new places/lost worlds etc. But even a scrap of paper with a basic layout that I can make notes on is great for me. Luckily, many FMs do have really great maps. I always feel a bit sad when there isn't one - or even a 'notes' page. I have little sense of direction and a decent map really helps!
A.Stahl on 23/4/2021 at 07:40
I never liked the shop thing between missions: just pure guessing on what you may need. There are some "standard" purchasing depending on the gamestyle (for example, I never cared about the moss but got as many water arrows as possible) but some very important things like flash bombs or holy water cannot be bought without actually looking at the mission itself.
Calibrator on 23/4/2021 at 11:53
When I learned one thing from the fan missions then it's this: The rent is incredibly high, where Garrett lives!
Several thousand/week seems to be quite normal, even if you can only grab a few hundreds' worth when in the city mansion of a lord...
So the more loot, the better! :cool:
Jokes aside, I normally don't like ghosting levels but love to b/j everything that moves & hide the unconscious bodies (I love the sound the blackjack makes, just like I love the loot jingle!).
After I "pacified" an area I then search for hidden loot etc. I think this is more relaxing than feeling high tension all the time and time all movements with the guards, for example.
While I usually run a around with lots of equipment to be able to handle each situation, I often notice in the end that aside from the blackjack I only used a single water arrow or two, sometimes not even that.
In other words I use consumable equipment very sparsely -- at least when not fighting hordes of the undead.
So, yes, I'd always favor a store, even if I don't actually need it that often. However, what I *really* love is functional shops in the level itself: I'm not sure if Calendra's Cistern had the first one but it was the first where I saw this (apart from TDS). I think it added quite a bit of atmosphere & realism and you could buy what you actually need in the mission. Come to think of it, Horns of Canzo also had a very nice shop.
However, the ultimate mission shop for me is of course when you can decide if you let it function normally or if you rather burgle & plunder it and knock the clerk out cold! Garrett is still a Thief, isn't he?
At least one other game allows for this, too: In "Dishonored: The Death of the Outsider" you can burgle the shop in each mission, which can be quite funny when a new owner takes over and comments on the break-in...
uncadonego on 23/4/2021 at 15:44
Quote Posted by uncadonego
Just go ahead and share your thoughts on this aspect of the newer FM's, or anything else that has comes to your mind regarding things that need to be kept in mind with building newer FM's, vis-a-vis not losing some of the spirit of the OM's by FM builders.
Somewhat in the spirit of: "We can do this, but should we?"
Other things that new design missions stretch too far compared to OM's is welcome conversation too....
Taylor on 23/4/2021 at 16:18
The shop in Horns of Canzo could be robbed, even though the stuff you could buy didn't match the stuff you could steal.
Personally I don't prefer an ingame shop, especially as it's uncertain for me, how it treats loot amount (and I prefer to get the most loot possible) and only use the opportunity if something is mandatory and I don't have it (mostly a single rope arrow).
I think the Sweet spot is a good harmony between story, gameplay and mission design and if either is somewhat lacking the other two can make up for it for a certain extent and still result in an excellent and enjoyable FM.
This can include a shop but it requires a lot of planning and forethought in my opinion. A shop is rather pointless for a small mission with little effective use of equipment while larger scaled missions might feel empty if you have to plunder half of Hightowne including a bank, a museum, and the Baron's Treasure Room to merely gain 300 loot. Also shopping from over 2000 loot is rarely a need at all, unless the next mission is something like Sabotage at the Soulforge, where a huge number of enemies require thinking even with a large equipment pool (probably the only OM without an overexceeding amount of equipment). But even then, maneuvering between 100 robots and cameras is a lot less of a pressure if you have 200 fire arrows in you pocket.
Not even taking into account that a mission should be fairly achievable without buying any equipment (and making the mission a frustrating mess without proper gear), which is working even more against the concept of a larger scaled shop.
Probably the reason why can't you normally rob the shops you use is the mutual understanding between criminal characters, that you spare those who you need to gain your money or buy the equipment you need to your job. Robbing fences and arms dealers of the underworld would instantly give a dishonorable reputation and certain refusal from the underworld characters.
Even a skilled independent thief like Garrett needs allies such as fences and shopkeepers, or he might end up refused or even double-crossed by them (which without a faction to cover one up would likely result in quick demise).
uncadonego on 25/4/2021 at 03:40
Just going to use Raven's Creek as an example again. I loved it, and will play it again. In terms of direction FM's are taking though, I'll use it again as an example, only because it's most recent in my memory, having just finished it this week.
In T1, Garrett was going to retire for life with 100,000 gold. In just this one campaign, Garrett steals just shy of 30,000 gold.
The size FM builds can accomplish now need some type of reward for exploration, but mega money makes the loadout store useless. When you can buy out the whole store without regretting bad purchase choices once you get in-game, or being glad you bought the things you did, that aspect of the game is lost.
As Calibrator mentioned, many of us, if not most, can get through a mission without using any equipment. Maybe that's a direction that FM builds could take. Make us have to use equipment. A couple more torches in patrolled areas, having to use moss to get by a guard on short patrol over a metal floor, etc.
Taylor on 25/4/2021 at 19:30
I partly agree with you as I'm also the type of person who ends OM Kidnap with 5+ gas arrows and 60+ water arrows in his pocket. (Quite a decent amount of total equipment for expert) :D
Actually to make most players feel rewarded for exploring, you'd need one of these three:
- loot
- equipment
- other items of interest (or reach point X objective, which can be used very limited times)
Loot and equipment talk for themselves, the higher their amount is the more inflated it gets though, thus smaller missions may become more rewarding, as it's small enough you won't end up with an obscene amount of either or get a rather unrewarding play.
Other items of interest could be the target item you have to steal, a set scattered throughout the mission to get some bonus (e.g. Rose Cottage, Violent End of Duncan Malveine or Scarlet Cascabel - at least v1.0, haven't played yet v2.0 had such features), it could give the player an additional "loot" without inflating real loot or equipment.
Also some missions featured quite cool unique items (one FM had a gemstone which transformed into a fire elemental ally if came in contact with fire, and transformed back if the elemental got killed).
I think we can give several excuses why Garrett didn't end up rich and retired for good, even taking FMs into account.
We could even say actual inflation of money happened in The City, as loot amounts (and also the cost of the basic equipment) are significantly higher in TDS than the first two games. Maybe Garrett underestimated the cost of "retiring" on the quality of life he desired, and thus the 100.000 gold wouldn't be enough :)
We could also give valid reasons for him losing his money (other than wine and whores), e.g. being double-crossed or otherwise failed by a fence - just think about Cutty and Bafford's scepter.
Btw. Garrett did retire before the setup of Raven's Creek, so maybe he'll just do it again :) though even if individual FMs could be inserted into Thief Canon as extension of the world imagined by LGS originally, most of these FMs conflict with each other storywise taking Garrett or other secondary characters into directions that exclude each other.
Back on the track, forcing a player to use equipment is a double-edged sword. I'd say it requires exceptionally good design skills to accomplish it properly. While it may be an interesting challenge for more experienced players, less talented players might find it frustratingly difficult.
Just think about OMs which probably most Taffers found rather difficult on the first try, but for an expert player they're, but a breeze mostly.
