The Citizen Kane of video games... - by Yakoob
Phatose on 9/10/2009 at 03:40
I wasn't making a statement on the quality of the plot. I was making a statement on the quantity of plot(s).
More to the point, if both lightside and darkside are possible - and therefore considered part of the unit collectively referred to as plot - what rational basis do you have for discounting other possible outcomes where the player fails at a given point, or even stands immobile, from also being portions of the plot?
It seems to me your primary charges against the later are A: that it's stupid and uninteresting, both of which are true - but neither of which seem relevant, as no definition of plot I'm aware of actually requires it to be a *good* plot. And B: This was not a specific situation dreamed up by the game designers specifically for the purpose of that scene.
The thing is, I'm not at all convinced the premeditated thought by a developer is necessary for something to be a plot. I see a parallel in painting - the Mona Lisa was undeniably intended to be a painting of a woman. But these days entire bodies of work are built upon a framework of splashing paint onto a page and seeing what comes out. And it's accepted as art, despite the lack of specific intent on the part of the painter. Similarly, a game plot can be the result of a designer sitting there and plotting out scenes - but I absolutely believe that doing so is not a prerequisite of being a plot.
I'm harping on this because I see that reality - that programmers can set down a set of rules and get desirable outcomes without plotting out every point - as the huge success of computers. And compared to other forms of more mature media, it's the one thing games can have that the other arts simply cannot.
Dismissing that notion out of hand because it doesn't mesh well with concepts of plot in previous media is doing a major disservice to gaming's potential.
As for Citizen Kane....well, a huge portion of what makes Kane so important is that it was a break from previous mediums. Kane took cinema in the direction that only Cinema could go, and used the strengths of the medium to their full effect - which is why it's a definitive work.
I'd expect the Citizen Kane of gaming, when it finally comes along, will do the same - show things in a way only games can do. But as long as we're limiting our concept of what a plot in game is to what the concept of plot in a movie is, we're never going to get there.
ZylonBane on 9/10/2009 at 05:31
How can we have the Citizen Kane of video games, when we still haven't had the Citizen Kane of board games yet?
Zygoptera on 9/10/2009 at 06:43
Quote Posted by Phatose
But as long as we're limiting our concept of what a plot in game is to what the concept of plot in a movie is, we're never going to get there.
This makes me suspect that I haven't been very clear. If I were to get philosophical about things I might talk about the concept of 'plot space' or 'plot webs' made of all the possible (and implied significant) plot decisions inherent in a game. What I've been saying is that game plots should be considered based on the whole 'plot space/web' rather than a single in game iteration as any playthrough is fundamentally subjective and prone to all sorts of biases in a way a single watching of a movie is not. Thus in KOTOR's case while you have mutually exclusive possibilities for dark/light side endings both should be considered when looking at its plot.
The 'plot space' concept doesn't really have an equivalent in movies as they are by nature linear so I do acknowledge that the two media have significant differences, however I do think you can still compare the two much as you can compare books and movies despite them being significantly differing media as well.
Phatose on 9/10/2009 at 13:13
Then I believe we're essentially talking about the same thing, in slightly different language.
In retrospect, perhaps the comparisons aren't so useless after all.
gunsmoke on 9/10/2009 at 13:27
Quote Posted by CCCToad
Am I the only one who thinks Citizen kane was just slightly overrated?
I have a feeling I may need that flame resistant vest.
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Which is made out of backing up your statements.
I, for one, am interested to hear your opinion on it. Sure, it is an over-USED reference (and consequently an easy way to say something is groundbreaking, timeless, and genius) but I am curious why you think the movie itself is over-RATED.
CCCToad on 9/10/2009 at 15:10
I've thought that it doesn't really tell a story in a way thats "unique to the medium", the plot could very easily be told via stage or book. People confuse innovative cinematography with storytelling, I think.
scarykitties on 9/10/2009 at 17:07
I would point out that District 9 was, in some circles, criticized for its use of an initial documentary introduction before taking the viewpoint of the individual being focused upon in the documentary. Maybe because Citizen Kane did it first (or if not first, then much earlier), it's more forgivable.
Angel Dust on 10/10/2009 at 03:16
Quote Posted by CCCToad
I've thought that it doesn't really tell a story in a way thats "unique to the medium", the plot could very easily be told via stage or book. People confuse innovative cinematography with storytelling, I think.
Nope, it's just that you have no idea what you are talking about. Storytelling is not the story itself but the way it is told, which in the case of film includes cinematography.
You could tell the plot of
Citizen Kane in another medium but since
Kane utilised very filmic storytelling techniques it would be a
vastly different experience. There are obvious examples like the various montage sequences (e.g. the disintegration of the marraige) and the way flash-forwards/backs and scene transitions are done but there is also the more subtle techniques like mise-en-scene/lighting/framing which are used to suggest or heighten the emotions/mood/themes.
You don't have to agree that
Citizen Kane is the 'greatest film of all time' (it's not even close to being mine) but if you if you're not challenging the masterful and pioneering way it uses cinematic technique and how influentual it has been then you should probably restrict your comments to "I didn't like it" because you don't know what you are talking about.
Quote Posted by scarykitties
I would point out that District 9 was, in some circles, criticized for its use of an initial documentary introduction before taking the viewpoint of the individual being focused upon in the documentary. Maybe because Citizen Kane did it first (or if not first, then much earlier), it's more forgivable.
Or maybe it's because
Citizen Kane utilised it more effectively? Note I actually thought the documentary-like sections in
District 9 were very effective, as pretty much all of the reviews I read, but I don't think
Kane is getting a pass there because it's old.
SubJeff on 12/10/2009 at 07:04
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
How can we have the Citizen Kane of video games, when we still haven't had the Citizen Kane of board games yet?
Shogun, original version.
