Thirith on 7/10/2009 at 11:01

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Very few works of art are completely homogenous entities. They can be subtle in some ways and less-than-subtle in others.

Calling something pretentious, however, has little to do with whether something is subtle. Something isn't straightforward? Someone will call it pretentious. Something isn't told in a linear fashion? It'll be called pretentious. Something uses implications, hinting at things rather than spelling them out? Pretentious. I.e. something can be subtle (in the sense that it doesn't hit you in the face with "This is the message!") and still be called pretentious.

And this is where I'm afraid I have to go back into the meeting. If I have a moment later on, I'll write more.

scarykitties on 7/10/2009 at 12:10

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I've quickly learned that, at least in the literary world, the greatest works are considered those that can be revisited again and again, enjoyed each time while something new is always discovered. This is often done with a combination of efficient detail (not necessarily heavy, but efficient--things that are described are done so for a reason), intertextuality (the work relies upon, adds to, and references other significant works in context or metaphor), and subtlety (there is at least one deeper underlying meaning that is described almost entirely through symbolism, such as weather, season, symbolic acts of characters, etc.). All-in-all, if a literary work is dynamic enough that one can ascribe various theories as to what else is going on beneath the narrative, then it's often considered to be a great work.

What games could this be applied to? Which games take level design beyond a fun place to walk through, shooting up baddies, and pack it with deeper symbolism.

Well, I guess the Silent Hill games, 2 in particular, comes to mind. Could someone who has a bigger game database offer some others?

Kuuso on 7/10/2009 at 12:51

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A game, which is a parody of conspiracy theories is an unintentional parody?

*shits a brick*

Thirith on 7/10/2009 at 14:24

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Same here. I don't think that the original Deus Ex considered itself a parody of conspiracy theories. Deus Ex: Invisible War was actually closer to conscious parody IMO, especially with the two competing coffee companies mirroring the overall conspiracy, but that game had other, bigger issues.



IMO that's the main problem with the Citizen Kane comparison. You could make some good points that while games might be art, they don't have to be *narrative* art and that whatever artistic potential they have will be different from the artistic potential of a primarily narrative art form or medium. Just like there's little sense in judging a Brueghel and a Pollock by the same standards.

Stitch on 7/10/2009 at 17:33

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MarioKart

(I'm at work and didn't watch the linked video in the original post, a fact which may come back to haunt me)