The Citizen Kane of video games...

june gloom on 8/10/2009 at 05:45

I was referring to its gameplay which isn't that much different from other Infinity Engine games. Still feel clever?

Taffer36 on 8/10/2009 at 05:47

Quote Posted by Zygoptera

The main thing about CK- to my mind- is that it was a movie that more than any other tried to circumvent the traditional limitations of its medium to further its story and how it's told (story in this case includes some indefinables like 'atmosphere' as well as scripting and acting). The technical aspects were important, certainly, but they were all in service to allowing Welles to tell his story better, not just for their own sake. If you think that th most important things about CK were its technical achievements then that is fair enough and comparing games to it is fatuous, personally I think that's rather missing the point of both the comparison and CK.

I have no input on the rest of the argument here at the moment, such as the reasons to which you are arguing the meaning of Citizen Kane, but I'm going to have to agree with dethtoll on this one in that Citizen Kane was what it was solely due to the technical side. And by "technical side", I specifically mean the cinematography (and I guess to an extent how the editing worked with that cinematography).

If you're talking about Citizen Kane the movie, then sure, the narrative was interesting, the casting was well done, the acting bladyblurdyblah but we're not. We're talking about Citizen Kane the Citizen Kane.

Aja on 8/10/2009 at 05:58

Bioshock is video gaming's Citizen Kane

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Illuminatus on 8/10/2009 at 06:08

Quote:

Originally posted by dethtoll:
I was referring to its gameplay which isn't that much different from other Infinity Engine games. Still feel clever?

Yes, I was also referring to the highly original gameplay, setting, characters, party dialogue, items, factions, unorthodox RPG conventions, etc. You are aware that one of the biggest reasons the game sold disappointingly at first is because many people *were* expecting a standard Infinity Engine game, right?

Angel Dust on 8/10/2009 at 06:55

Quote Posted by dethtoll

With that in mind, when we want to declare a "Citizen Kane of video games" we need to first see Citizen Kane for what it is: technical innovation that invents new ways of telling a story.

Not quite. I've mentioned this before in other threads but, and mothra touched on this earlier, the reason Citizen Kane is often though to be the 'greatest film of all time' is because it told it's story using the strengths unique to the medium. It wasn't really doing much that was brand new as at that point film had developed much of its language, via films like Birth Of A Nation. However Citizen Kane was one of the first* to use it all in such a virtuostic way, truly creating a work that simply could not be translated to another medium without losing much of what made it great.

That is where a lot of the games usually trumpeted fall down when it come to the Kane comparison. The stories or experiences could be just as effectively (in some cases maybe more effectively) be told in another medium. That does not mean that those games are not enjoyable or that once games figure out their 'language' and how to best use it, that they must all adhere to those conventions. I mean I've watched plenty of great films that could just as easily been plays but that didn't make them any less enjoyable and I would hope we will always have games that play like films/books etc.

Currently I think games are still trying to figure out how to play to their strengths. Obviously the main strength is 'interactivity' but there is still much experimenting to be done. Films started with 'moving pictures' and over many years figured out how the use of editing/framing/mise-en-secne/acting/angles etc can increase the effect of these 'moving pictures'. A lot of 'art' games have bugger all gameplay and that certainly is not the way to go. An example of something that I think was a mini Birth Of A Nation moment in gaming was the first Half-Life. Being able to tell a story in that way, via the gameworld and completely from the players perspective, is unique to gaming (Mr Orson Welles himself might even have been interested in the possibilities of such a narrative technique; it's well known that his intial first film idea was to be a FPP version of Heart Of Darkness). However since then many games, including some Valve ones, have taken that idea and haven't really developed it further or used it clumsily or inappropriately.

I think Portal is an interesting case study in effective, unique game storytelling. Forget about the memes, the short duration, easy puzzles etc and look at how it uses both the strengths and limitations of the medium to create a unique experience. It used the 'Half-Life narrative technique' more effectively than any game yet by marrying it to a concept perfectly suited to it. It's gameplay complemented the narrative and perfectly integrated with the gameworld and the whole 'test-subject' conceit meant that the usual gaming trail-and-error/running around lost etc was actually part of the story. Now not every game can use the same conceit but it illustrates that as well as playing to the strength of the medium, you should know and work with the limitations of it also.

* It should be noted that there were plenty of other films around that time doing similarly wonderful things. Kane is often singled out because
a) It's American
b) It's about the dark-side of the American dream
c) It was made by a 23 year old who had never made a film before

Renzatic on 8/10/2009 at 06:57

I always figured the ugly as nasty hell voodoo granny boxart had alot to do Planescapes poor sales.

june gloom on 8/10/2009 at 07:15

@Angel Dust: While many of the things CK did weren't new (and many others were, but that's beside the point), they'd never been collected into one film before.

@Illuminatus: FYI, broadening your scope and then going HAH YOU'RE WRONG because the other person is only referring to one specific thing is poor debate skills.

Koki on 8/10/2009 at 08:12

Quote Posted by scarykitties

I've never played Alpha Centauri. In fact, I've only heard it mentioned in passing a few times. PC, perchance?

scarykitties is my new favourite poster. "Never played it and only heard about it few times. Must be on them PCs."

Sorry dethtoll.

As for SMAC, it's closer to art than Torment. As dethtoll said, combat(i.e. a large chunk of gameplay) in PS:T was just painful. SMAC combines excellent gameplay with excellent writing and excellent philosophical/moralistic concepts. It is, frankly speaking, a perfect game.

Illuminatus on 8/10/2009 at 08:18

dethtoll my good man, the list I gave you is all part of what is known as "gameplay". I think this is obvious to even the most casual gamer. Anyway, you're not wrong in criticizing Torment, it certainly has its flaws, but like I said before, you're going to have a real hard time convincing anyone unoriginality is one of them.

Angel Dust on 8/10/2009 at 09:13

Quote Posted by dethtoll

@Angel Dust: While many of the things CK did weren't new (and many others were, but that's beside the point), they'd never been collected into one film before.

That's what I said, to quote myself

Quote:

... Citizen Kane was one of the first* to use it all in such a virtuostic way.

Simply talking about the innovations without regards to the fluency in which all the techniques were weaved together (as some here seem to be doing) is missing the point.