The Citizen Kane of video games... - by Yakoob
Phatose on 8/10/2009 at 13:39
Quote Posted by Illuminatus
Going on stabbing and killing rampages is a (fairly idiotic) player decision, not a plot point (like, say, Dak'kon's Unbroken Circle). You can make a similar claim regarding the child-killing in Fallout or sword-fighting in Thief: these actions are on the periphery of the central game experience, and unless you actively seek them out, they're not exactly the marquee attractions (aka, what you're criticizing isn't the story).
There's a problem with this line of logic. All of the 'plot points' require player decisions to be invoked, and even then the details of any plot point are determined by the player's actions.
In short, if something being a player decision implies that it's not a plot point, then Torment does not have a plot.
scarykitties on 8/10/2009 at 14:15
Quote Posted by Phatose
In short, if something being a player decision implies that it's not a plot point, then Torment does not have a plot.
Well, I think that all who have played PST would agree that it does, in fact, have a plot (and in my personal opinion, a strong one). The thing is that the plot breaks from player decision at the point where player actions cannot be predicted, or where player actions break so far from a typical interaction that it simply shatters the plot and brings the game down to its basic gameplay elements.
For instance, you CAN go on a slaughter spree in Torment. But who would? A dictator trying to conquer the city for him or herself, maybe, but your player doesn't have an army, or any reason to have such urges, particularly since Sigil is guarded by the Lady of Pain, and anyone who existed in that world would be aware that such an attempt would be foolish. The plot is there, but being an interactive game, the player can interject their own illogical and impulsive behavior that no rational individual within the setting would ever attempt.
Thirith on 8/10/2009 at 19:00
Quote Posted by Wormrat
I mean, even if you want to include random player actions as the "plot," it's not like you can ever use that stuff to say whether a game's plot is good or bad, because it'll be different for everyone. For any evaluative purposes, the only kind of plots we can talk about are the predetermined ones.
And if we do that, we take away exactly the kind of thing that makes a game a game. Which kind of defeats the purpose, because what might make a good plot for one medium might fall flat in another.
Which brings me to another, related issue: you cannot really discuss the quality of any plot without taking into consideration the storytelling itself. The same plot can be used to fantastic and to horrible effect. What makes a plot inherently good? Believability? You can tell some cool stories that work with lack of believability. Complexity? A complex plot isn't automatically a good plot. All of this depends on storytelling - and in a game you can't really divorce this from gameplay, unless the plot is furthered exclusively in cutscenes.
Thirith on 8/10/2009 at 19:41
Quote Posted by Wormrat
Are you one of those "the mechanics have a
message" people? Give me an example of "gameplay" that tells a story. It's called story
telling, after all.
. The Sorrow, I believe. Look it up if you don't know what I'm talking about.
scarykitties on 8/10/2009 at 19:42
Wouldn't performing various tasks in the game that continue the plot aid the storytelling? Whether it's puzzles, like in Silent Hill 2, which can assist in building atmosphere and deepening the setting, or going from point A to point B and doing C, like in Half-Life 2?
Putting at least a part of the plot's progression (that is, storytelling) into the hands of an interactive user is a part of what makes a game a game.
Phatose on 8/10/2009 at 20:59
Quote Posted by Wormrat
There's a really easy way to settle this, and it's to just say that "plot" for a video game includes--and
only includes--everything that's absolutely guaranteed to happen over the course of the game. All the unavoidable battles, inevitable deaths, etc. Stuff like optional cut scenes or alternative solutions can just fall under "plot branches."
I mean, even if you want to include random player actions as the "plot," it's not like you can ever use that stuff to say whether a game's plot is good or bad, because it'll be different for everyone. For any evaluative purposes, the only kind of plots we can talk about are the predetermined ones.
The thing about that approach is that in any game with any kind of conflict, you can realistically die in the first encounter, and happily avoid everything beyond the intro.
You could I suppose alter the rule to be only points that cannot be avoid except by complete player failure, but I feel it would be much better to simply acknowledge that a game is not a linear story, and discuss the possible plotlines and the other elements that link them together.
Quote:
Are you one of those "the mechanics have a message" people? Give me an example of "gameplay" that tells a story. It's called storytelling, after all.
(
http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/Boatmurdered/) http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/Boatmurdered/
ZylonBane on 8/10/2009 at 21:18
Quote Posted by Wormrat
Actually, that's what makes a game a
role-playing game--plot malleability.
No,
character malleability makes an RPG. Most RPGs actually have railroad-linear plots, with at best some minor variations in the side-quests.
Phatose on 8/10/2009 at 21:22
I'd say the prime difference between a plot and a sequence of events is that the former is presented for the purpose of entertainment. The extension of the term to also encompass gameplay is not all that more major then the extension of it to cover epic poems, musicals, movies and novels.
At any rate, in many stories in any medium, action sequences are a portion of what would be called a plot. The arguement that 'mario jumping on a koopa isn't really telling a story' just begs the question 'Is indiana jones outrunning a boulder telling a story?'
Andarthiel on 8/10/2009 at 21:40
Legacy of Kain:Soul Reaver is the Citizen Kane of Games(and no the pun was not deliberate:cheeky:)
The epic story, character, wonderfully written dialog as well as great gameplay are what make it great.
Phatose on 8/10/2009 at 22:24
That varies significantly with the game. If it's an ultra-linear jRPG, I'm likely referring only to the fixed elements. Flexible western RPGs, I'm refering to the combination of fixed elements and choices made during the game. Action games - well, in all likelihood, it's again a mix.
I'd argue that the only real difference between Mario and Indiana is that Indiana running from the boulder was determined by one author, Mario stomping was determined by two.
