Chade on 12/10/2009 at 00:02
Not sure if I'm making this too off-topic, but ...
Let's say we compare two games, and two players. One game displays a measure of how much the player explores, one game doesn't. One player explores of his own volition, the other player wants to maximise his exploration score.
Game displays stat, player explores -> game is explored
Game doesn't display stat, player explores -> game is explored
Game displays stat, player need incentive -> game is explored
Game doesn't display stat, player needs incentive -> game is not explored
I have two questions: Why does our intrepid explorer care whether the game displays a score or not? And isn't it good that we are encouraging our lazy player to explore the map? Particularly if exploration is part of the core gameplay?
TheCapedPillager on 12/10/2009 at 00:56
Quote Posted by Chade
And isn't it good that we are encouraging our lazy player to explore the map? Particularly if exploration is part of the core gameplay?
Is it just me, or does the idea of telling the player that they've successfully explored 70% or 100% of a level a bit of an immersion killer? Sure, you only get the stats once the level is complete anyway, but I don't want to be reminded that I've been playing in an isolated map with no connection to the rest of the city (can you really explore 100% of an area in real life?).
In general, I don't have any problem with the usual stats (KOs, bodies found etc), and I quite like the idea of a basic 'Stealth-o-meter' as a basic gauge of your ability (though this would obviously be subjective). People can choose to ignore such information if they want and just continue to play as they normally would, or they could try 'improve' if having a high 'stealth rating' is important to them. I guess it's kinda like Xbox achievements, some will find value in them and some won't.
jtr7 on 12/10/2009 at 01:06
Stats that discourage sloppy play and don't tell the player what the PC couldn't know, with rare exception, are the ones I can get behind.
In a way, having a comprehensive list of stats in a log would be interesting reading for those inclined to like that stuff, but keep the stats screen stripped down to those most psychologically encouraging to the player to play the role better. Of course, the player will continue to do what the player wants.
In-game percentage of loot is distasteful to me, seeing how much loot in gold one has as the player plays through is just fine.
What should encourage a lazy player to explore thoroughly is the amount of loot the PC must acquire, and certain objects in extant locations. The objectives that are triggered from overhearing a conversation or reading a text that piques the PC's interest will work just fine, like reading about the Serpentyle Torc and having to go to a wholly different part of the map to get it before the mission will end. The placement of difficult AI scenarios, with inviting terrain providing lots of interesting cover, shadows, and multiple ways to get through the scene, means players cover more territory and goodies can be found in those surrounding areas. Well-written missions and plausibly placed items, convos, and readables give the player the incentive. The system was already in place, it just needs to be tapped. Lazy players do not need lazy frikkin' game mechanics to pander to those losers.
Ringer on 12/10/2009 at 01:20
If loot is distributed all over the map then the only stat u need is loot stats...
I personally think that is enough as I generally despise stats as stats in multiplayer games ruin gameplay as players don't want to attack as dying "ruins" their stats.
Springheel on 12/10/2009 at 01:32
Don't like stats? Don't click on the "Stats" option at the end of the mission. Problem solved.
sNeaksieGarrett on 12/10/2009 at 01:54
yeah, or have like an options toggle for turning stats off...
Chade on 12/10/2009 at 01:55
Quote Posted by TheCapedPillager
Is it just me, or does the idea of telling the player that they've successfully explored 70% or 100% of a level a bit of an immersion killer?
I'd like to distinguish between the information displayed in a statistic, and the way in which that statistic is displayed to the user. It doesn't have to bounce up and down in the middle of the monitor screen while the sound of cheering fills the room. Are you really going to find some statistic discretely displayed on some menu screen an immersion killer?
Springheel makes it sound like they display stats in an extremely discrete fashion.
Quote Posted by jtr7
What should encourage a lazy player to explore thoroughly is the amount of loot the PC must acquire ... Lazy players do not need lazy frikkin' game mechanics to pander to those losers.
I'm not following you here. How do you evaluate whether a game mechanic is lazy or not? Looking at the continuum: self-motivated -> prompted -> forced. You're saying you're okay with either end of the scale, but the middle is lazy?
In fact, now that I think about it: surely the entire point of the normal/hard/expert system is to score the player. You can play while exploring most of the map and not knocking out the guards? Expert acheivement!
It just seems to me that the distinctions being drawn between stat, score, level, etc, are too fine to stand up under close scrutiny.
jtr7 on 12/10/2009 at 02:11
Quote Posted by Springheel
Don't like stats? Don't click on the "Stats" option at the end of the mission. Problem solved.
Way to make an overly broad dismissal, there. :nono:
Problem NOT solved.
You've ignored TDS and how that's affected things, and how it's really led to some crap suggestions for
Thief 4, like leaderboards and achievements--as if that would not have a negative impact on so many levels.
One deviation leads to more and more and soon, very soon, it's a kiddie game for 'tards.
Springheel on 12/10/2009 at 02:38
Quote:
Way to make an overly broad dismissal, there.
...
You've ignored TDS and how that's affected things, and how it's really led to some crap suggestions for Thief 4, like leaderboards and achievements--as if that would not have a negative impact on so many levels.
One deviation leads to more and more and soon, very soon, it's a kiddie game for 'tards.
Way to make an overly broad slipperly slope there. :rolleyes:
Seriously, what does a stealth score that rates the number of alerts you've produced have ANYTHING to do with TDS or "crap suggestions for Thief 4"?
The TDM stats screen has nothing to do with how you choose to play the game. If you don't want to look at it, don't. It's very easy NOT to press that button. Some people actually like to get information on their level of stealthiness, and the stat screen is there for those that care. So as I said, there is no problem. Unless your intention is to argue that *no one* should be allowed to see those kinds of stats, in which case, I can't help you.
I know this can be difficult for some people to imagine, but there are actually different and *equally valid* ways of enjoying stealth games.
(on re-reading your post, it occurred to me that you might be speaking about general game design in the abstract, and assume that I was as well. If that's the case, we've crossed wires--I'm only talking about the TDM stat screen.)
Ringer on 12/10/2009 at 03:58
Quote Posted by Springheel
Don't like stats? Don't click on the "Stats" option at the end of the mission. Problem solved.
It is not that I do not like stats, they serve their purpose and I am sure some players like looking at them... I myself only look at the loot stats to see how much I missed..
