SLIEZER on 28/5/2009 at 21:56
The original series had normal, hard and expert. While expert was the hardest, it wasn't difficult enough if you ask me. I think it would be awesome with a really hard gamemode that also rewarded the player with additional things like conversations between guards or something similiar -- just minor side-things, but still worth it if you like Thief and want to explore.
jay pettitt on 28/5/2009 at 22:10
Unreal Tournament style mutators perhaps?
theBlackman on 28/5/2009 at 22:38
:tsktsk:
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
Unreal Tournament style mutators perhaps?
Brian The Dog on 28/5/2009 at 23:29
Hmm, not sure about making it harder. I understand why you'd think that, but the original missions were called "Normal, Hard, Expert" for a reason. I'd just be a bit wary of scaring off new people by forcing them to be good at the game. The first time I played Thief, I had big difficulties getting through Normal. I'm currently replaying Thief, and despite playing lots of Fan Missions over the years, on certain missions I've had to look at Walkthroughs (mainly since I get lost easily, so things like The Lost City or the Bonehoard are really bad for me!).
One of the great things about Thief is the open-endedness of the gameplay, which comes via the level design. Players can then choose their own custom difficulty setting. For instance, I love watching guard patrols, working out optimal ways to blackjack my way through an area, and so on. With the level design, I can do this. Some people love ghosting. They too can do this. So people have come up with all sorts of unofficial difficulty settings (Lytha, Ghost, 100% loot, Iron-Man, etc) which they can set themselves and their friends. It's noticeable that even in Fan Missions, the difficulty settings don't insist on 100% loot or Ghosting, except in a few cases. Such "forced" difficulty settings actually limit the gameplay, not expand it.
Dia on 28/5/2009 at 23:38
Quote Posted by Brian The Dog
One of the great things about Thief is the open-endedness of the gameplay, which comes via the level design. Players can then choose their own custom difficulty setting. For instance, I love watching guard patrols, working out optimal ways to blackjack my way through an area, and so on. With the level design, I can do this. Some people love ghosting. They too can do this. So people have come up with all sorts of unofficial difficulty settings (Lytha, Ghost, 100% loot, Iron-Man, etc) which they can set themselves and their friends. It's noticeable that even in Fan Missions, the difficulty settings don't insist on 100% loot or Ghosting, except in a few cases. Such "forced" difficulty settings actually limit the gameplay, not expand it.
I agree 100%. :thumb: I've always disliked being forced to ghost, unless it was just thru a short section of the game/FM. 'Forced' difficulties just don't do it for me either.
Haplo on 28/5/2009 at 23:39
*only* if they manage to make quickloads fast. It is really frustrating to have to wait 30 seconds to load everytime you make a mistake.
theBlackman on 28/5/2009 at 23:56
Quote Posted by Haplo
*only* if they manage to make quickloads fast. It is really frustrating to have to wait 30 seconds to load everytime you make a mistake.
So... Learn to be patient, and don't make mistakes. :ebil:
Chade on 29/5/2009 at 00:11
Off the top of my head, my preferrred system would be:
1) Difficulty settings at the start of the level, which control the "difficulty" of the game mechanics, but do not impose any playstyle restriction on the player.
1a) These settings should include an easy option!
1b) Game difficulty can be controlled in more detail via a .ini file, so hardcore players can customize AI and make them as hard as they want ...
2) AI should react in to confrontation with Garrett in such a way that confrontation becomes harder, and stealth becomes easier. The game will dynamically adjust to the players skill and encourage them to be stealthy.
For instance, AI might tend to group together as they have more contact with Garrett. Groups of guards will be harder to confront, but won't be as hard for Garrett to ghost by. (Although blackjacking will also harder, so I might need to think it through a bit more ... !)
3) Playstyle restrictions should be optional achievements, not objectives. All acheivements should be thiefy in nature and in presentation ... no acheivements for killing all the guards, or anything like that. You can have a plethora of achievements, including mundane playstyle restrictions (don't kill anyone), as well as the common hardcore play styles.
3a) Each achievement should have a hidden "difficulty" rating ... scaffold the presentation of achievements so that newbies are introduced to the hardcore play styles one step at a time.
3b) Try to allow the community to create and share achievements ... it would be nice to have Azal's strange and unusual achievements for thief! :p
Chade on 29/5/2009 at 00:57
Umm ... isn't this obvious? Good players need harder challenges then bad players.
Also, it's not just rewarding them ... you also want to make confrontation harder, so that players are encouraged to use stealth.
The trick is to do it in such a way that the player doesn't feel like the reward system is screwing with them. You need to punish them with one hand, but then surreptitiously open up an oppurtunity with the other.
With guards grouping together, for instance, you can get them to group together and make brave talk about hunting down that thief, and make it sound like this is a big bad thing that is about to happen to you ... but actually in ten or twenty seconds they will go off and look in a neighbouring room and let you quickly sneak away ... well, that's the general idea, anyway. I'm not arguing for this exact functionality.
Finally, I've never understood why hardcore thief players care so much about the behaviour of the game once you get spotted. Aren't you supposed to be a hardcore player? Won't you spend 90% of your time in the game's pristine undisturbed state?
Chade on 29/5/2009 at 02:10
I know. Hence the last paragraph on my previous post.
Thief is actually the perfect game for this. There are really big differences in the play experience of someone who sneaks perfectly and someone who struggles. Poor player performance results in big game state changes over time. These state changes give you plenty of oppurtunity to make changes which encourage the player to be stealthy. You don't have to rely on any hidden variables which the player doesn't have access to. You can do stuff in the state changes which are fully visible and fit in with the game's fiction.
