TafferMonkeys! on 13/1/2007 at 03:24

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That's true, and i'll give that it's a theory to consider -- but I really never agreed with it. You really have to make several LARGE and far-reaching assumptions with that.

First, you have to assume that there are Maw creatures that are special exceptions to the rule. We know the Kurshok had been around LONG before most of the City's ancient history, living in a kind of "shame" for their self-believed offense against The Trickster. Why not simply snap his fingers and wish them away? Sure, he could be punishing them, but it leaves too many unanswered questions to believe the Kurshok are some kind of "special exception".

Second, There are the "Rat Beast" which makes you wonder how THEY exist if both the Trickster and Victoria are gone. If I remember correctly the new "leader" of the Pagans was the blind ally of Victoria (I forget her name right now) and she really doesn't seem to possess the level of god-like power from the Maw needed to create all these potential "Rat Beast". Also, in sub-relation, many of the Pagans still believe the "spirit" of the Trickster (and maybe Victoria) was still present -- so, one could roughly say the "soul" of the Trickster and the Maw are one-and-the-same.

Third, you'll also notice the "Tree Beasts". They've been featured in Thief 2 and Thief 3 (Were they in Thief 1? I forget) and they would need to be created too. Now, one could say they're more like "Golems" in the sense they only have a rudimentary "sense of life" unlike a flesh-and-blood creature -- but considering the Thief storylines and the descriptions of "The Maw" i'm more prone to believe they're more "alive" than a golem-like creature, but don't seem as much because they connect more to nature and the environment than a flesh-creature does. So, that being said, how do Tree Beast exist without the Trickster or Victoria?

I admit, this is just my own personal theory (and maybe anyone else that thinks the same) but i've got a very strong feeling on this. Even though it's not flawless it makes MUCH more sense than just assuming the "Ape Beast" exist because they were "created automatically" instead of being created long ago and then left to breed and grow themselves. I'm more prone to believe these creatures ALREADY exist IN the Maw and are most likely summoned from the Maw into this world. It makes even more sense when you consider the main story by the end of Thief 1.

Anyway, that's just my POV -- and of course I mean no disrespect to anyone that disagrees. :thumb:

TafferMonkeys! on 13/1/2007 at 12:36

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VERY interesting theories here.



Well it's certainly almost a given Constantine/Trickster created the creatures originally once, yes (considering the god-like status he had). However, to presume he created them ALL then and there while you're in the Maw also means you have to presume those were actual "magic embryos", so to speak. Now, i'll certainly give you that neither I -- or anyone else, for that matter -- knows WHAT those "embryos" are since you never come to their point of origin to find out (and imagining a giant "monster queen mother" squeezing them out like an ant queen is a bit unsettling :eww: ). Still, it's just as likely the "magic embryos" were just a magical transportation means to carry them quickly from the heart of the Maw to the platform they drop the creatures on -- especially when you consider the obstacle course you practically have to run from that "drop-off" point just to reach the Trickster. It's really hard to say if they were some kind of embryo/egg/whatever or something else entirely since no official developer history was ever provided on that.



You'd also have to be taking what Garrett says as word-for-word literal, not to mention you'd have to assume that was Victoria's realm and not just another part of the Maw. The thing to remember about "The Maw" is it's entire name is "The Maw of Chaos", and of course "chaos" is a random force. That alone means that there's no telling WHO owns the realm if anyone at all (Trickster aside, since he's the "god" of that realm). I really don't see that as Garrett saying "Wow, someone DEFINATELY changed the Maw into a different look" as much as I just see it as a passing observation. Now, do I think Viktoria was in control of the Maw's powers? Yes, very likely. She could have shaped the Maw LANDSCAPE somewhat to her liking (and that much i'll agree with you on as being possible). She was a Dryad/Nymph-like creature, and second to Trickster, but i'm not so sure she directly "created" the creatures though.



Pretty much. :cheeky: But, you have to admit, the Rat Beast were pretty good additions to the Thief mythos.



Well, again, that's taking part of the Thief mythos a bit literally. For the most part I don't remember anything being OFFICIALLY titled "beast" IN the gameplay (even though there are plenty of readables that use those terms in a rudimentary sense to identify something). For the most part the titles struck me as "basic description" than anything else. I mean, take the "Bug Beast" for one example. I've seen people call them by dozens of names on these boards alone. Same with "Tree Beasts" or even with the unused "Orge" creatures (which look like another fantasy creature altogether). It really doesn't seem like a good idea to take them TOO literally by their game booklet or DromEd title alone. It just seems like a basic title to identify them by, especially when you consider the context of some of the various readables descriptions.



Possible. If I remember correctly though, the Kurshok believe the Trickster created them. They also believed they angered him somehow and because of that they were cast into the deep oceans or something to that extent. I also agree that the Kurshok DO breed themselves (because of the egg chamber you mentioned), but again you would have to assume the "embryos" in the Maw ARE in fact embryos. Unless i'm forgetting one, Garrett only ever officially entered the Maw twice in the entire Thief trilogy (Once at the end of Thief 1, then again halfway through Thief 2). Both times he was in the Maw he wasn't exactly sight-seeing because the first time it was to stop The Trickster and the second time he was on the trail of a Pagan messenger. I think in THAT regard it's because the designers didn't feel a need to have Garrett pass through a Ape Beast nursery or a Tree Beast garden. I suppose there's no sure answer to that, but again I find it's best not to presume too much as literal.



Now, this one i'll partly relent to you, actually. Watching the first Pagan "introduction movie" in Thief 3 clearly shows a shaman can use their blood to directly create a simple "eye" flower. It's QUITE possible someone like Diane (thanks for reminding me of her name, BTW) could create Tree Beasts with some effort (though I doubt anywhere near as easily as Trickster or Viktoria); and she could well summon Rat Beasts (though, I strongly stick to the word "summon", not "create"). What I don't agree on though is that she personally "recreated" them. We're given good indication she's in charge and powerful Pagan-magic-wise, but there's no direct evidence or even exact insinuation that she possesses "creative" powers. Again, Tree Beasts COULD be the exception considering the "eye" flower.



Right, I definately don't believe she possesses the kind of power that creates a Maw. Powerful-Pagan-High-Shaman or somesuch; yes. Actually, another thing here that KINDA supports my theory is when you define what a "shaman" is. In fantasy lore they tend to summon creatures; create from nature (ergo the potential "Tree Beast Creation" theory); commune with spirits (which could explain how Pagans and the Trickster could have been involved with certain Undead-heavy parts of the mythos); and generally use rituals to ASK for aid, unlike Hermetic magic which just takes -- usually from base elements (ala "The Hand Mages"). So it seems more likely "The Maw" in-and-of itself still exists, and she (or other shamans) can summon creatures from it (much in the same way a Medium can summon spirits from the land of the dead, or a Priest could summon demons from a Hell). Also, in the Thief mythos, "The Maw" is the Hammerite concept of "Hell" -- so looking at it in that regard makes a "summoning" potentially more thesiable.


In the end, I think the one thing we can certainly agree on is that the Thief Mythos is predominately left up to personal speculation; opinion; and interpretation. I think the developers somewhat intentionally left it that way because knowing the details would take away from the dark mystery of the fiction (not to mention make the game less fun for the "Casual Taffers"). There are alot of ways to interpret what happens in the Thief fiction, and because of that there are so many different views and alternate outlooks which end up being displayed by the FM designers -- and because of THAT we all win. :thumb:

Sorry if anybody thinks this is becoming a long-winded discussion, by the way -- but I just LOVE these theological/philosophical style discussions about the "Thief Mythos". Thanks, nicked! :cheeky:

TafferMonkeys! on 14/1/2007 at 12:12

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Very. :cheeky:



"I've got a simple job planned for tonight.... Lord Bafford's Manor, which was constructed seventeen years ago by Manhauser and Sons using imported mahogany....(fifteen minutes later)....and construction to the designs of the late Lord Bafford Sr, whom was 63 when he died from a heart attack. Bafford Sr was born Moxly "Flabbergasted" Bafford in the year....(fifteen more minutes later)....Should be a simple enough job. It's time to begin....right after I ponder the history of this section of the City which was constructed in...."

Yeah, somehow I think you've got a good point there. :laff:



I think in the Pagan cutscene's defense, those library/pagan rock/mechanist forge scenes in Thief 2 (as well as for Thief 1) were just backgrounds for the super imposed quotes at the beginning of the briefings. The Pagan Intro for Thief 3 was more "active" so it just seemed closer to being official canon. I'd certainly take it as more official canon than the "Title movies" for Thief 1 and Thief 2 (which I refer to as "Garrett the Assassin" movies since Garrett was always killing at least one person with his bow -- and gameplay tells us Garrett isn't so eager to just kill like that). I like how the "Title Movie" for Thief 3 (if you could call it that) was more exact though, since he only knocked out a guard (That movie being the one where he's scaling rooftops on a rainy night).

As a side note, did anyone ever notice how all three "Intro Movies" in Thief 3 (Hammerite; Pagan; even Keeper) were all kinda "Ritual" movies? The Hammers were making a holy symbol; the Pagan shaman was doing something with his magic and blood; even the Keepers were doing what they do almost ritualistically all the time (Scribing and locking secrets away).



I wouldn't put it past them to try if they could. :cheeky:

I'm willing to bet if they DID use the same method to make a Tree Beast though, it'd probably only take two or three human sacrifices. You see how a few drops create a flower, so drain a couple of willing Pagans dry and that should do it. If I were going to guess though, it might make more sense to say they use a little blood in a ritualistic fashion to bring a tree to life (though, in THAT case the Tree Beast WOULD be more like a Golem, except more "alive" than stone would be). I say that taking into account the number of Tree Beast in Thief 3 and the (seemingly) typical size of a large Pagan village (basing that on the Pagan village in Thief 2's "Trail of Blood" OM). It would probably take too many "Pagan brothers and sisters" to balance out with a good Tree Beast or two. Then again, we know how the Pagans are -- so it's possible they bled a few of their own dry. Also, considering the largest group of Tree Beast in Thief 3 are guarding a major artifact could support either side of that theory too.



You know, I agree with this theory -- but I also think that's only half of the whole theory too. I feel confident saying that I think "The Maw" physically still exists, but that the connection it used to have to the "Real World" was severely broken following the death of the Trickster, and then of Viktoria. There's more than enough evidence in all three games to suggest that Maw (or Maw-related) creatures were alive and well in the "Real World" long before Thief 1 (The Craymen under the Opera House; Burricks in the Bonehoard; Fire Elementals in the Lost City; ect.), so of course there would likely be some creatures left in the Real World, stuck there from returning to the Maw. It was probably an easy effort for them before Trickster and Viktoria died but now they're hiding in the deep woods and dark shadows, away from the overpowering humanity they're trapped with. There's plenty to suggest they're trapped here, but I suspect it's also possible for people like Diane to be able to summon them from the Maw too (MAYBE not as many or as powerful a group as Trickster or Viktoria could, but smaller numbers and weaker creatures like Rat Beasts).

I know there's a debate on if "The Maw" is in the same plane of existance as the Thief "Real World" or another reality altogether (I personally believe it's an alternate reality), but it's not hard to imagine Pagan shaman being able (perhaps at a great cost) to open a slight portal into The Maw just long enough to draw something from it (power; elementals; beasts; whatever) -- or maybe to toss someone in. :ebil:

Another thing that kinda supports this theory goes back to the "Trace the Courier" OM from Thief 2. At the end of that mission there's a portal which takes you into the woods; a portal that looks JUST like the ones that lead to The Maw. While it's possible Viktoria could have done that herself (maybe even before the events of Thief 1, while she and Constantine were still "setting up" in the city) it might seem more reasonable she had one of her second-in-commands create it, which means she would have had to teach them how to use "portal magic". It's not a far leap to "Maw portals" from that point then. Also, remember that the portal to the Maw in Thief 2 was opened with two gems -- so it's just as possible certain "key" relics could contain power enough to open portals into the Maw, therefore not even needing anyone to possess personal power to open a portal between the "Real World" and The Maw.



Now THAT is a GOOD question -- and practically unanswerable. There are so, so many ways to look at that -- and so, so many reasons each theory wouldn't exactly work -- that it's impossible to be sure of anything. One might say "They marched to the Hammerite Temple and assaulted it", but then WHY didn't we hear about it happening in the Briefing before "Strange Bedfellows" OM in Thief 1? A small army of monsters, marching a parade through the city would HAVE to had stirred-up a bunch of panic-stricken paupers or two, whom would go running in all directions, screaming about an invasion. Also, did you notice how most of the streets before reaching the Temple were mostly untouched (not counting the bodies)? Seemed a bit TOO clean considering an army of monsters would have been storming through them, not to mentioned how badly they wrecked the Hammerite Temple (though, they did mostly focus on destroying the more "Holy" icons and relics).

[As a funny aside too, did anyone else notice that one of the "Pubs" along the way to the assaulted Temple still had people conversing behind the door? It's like they have no idea of the carnage outside. :sweat: ]

The other side of that theory BARELY makes any more sense than the first -- and that's that the creatures attacked from UNDER the temple, through the caves and tunnels up into the temple itself. When you consider how many Hammerite priest are strewn about variously around the temple grounds it seems a little more reasonable -- BUT, then you have to ask yourself "Why were some of the Hammerites still guarding the front door, or why did the creatures not spread out further into the city?". CLEARLY we know the Trickster was sending creatures through the Maw portal THEN and during Garrett's trip into the Maw to take over (and surely he ment the City as well). So why did we not see them lurking the streets or why didn't we hear the sounds of total chaos drifting across the city while heading to the assaulted Temple? You COULD say "They were completely focused on destroying the Hammerites first", but that seems a bit unreasonable since the Hammers in the temple -- and locked in their underground fort -- were all but wiped-out by that point. There's no reason for the creatures not to spread out a little.

STILL, we do at least know that the city and its people were PARTLY aware of the Trickster's attack from Thief 2 (and bits of Thief 3 I think).

MY personal best guess? Well, it's a longshot like all the rest -- but i'd wager that they came from WITHIN the temple (most likely through the underground caverns) even though I suspect the developers might have imagined them marching through the city TO the temple and attacking (even though they never said as much in the game). Most likely there was a part of the underground tunnels ("conveniently" inaccessable during your sneaking around in "Strange Bedfellows") that they were coming from, which of course led to the Maw portal they were pouring through. I did once ponder if maybe the underground Hammerite fortress was actually a circle AROUND where the portal would have been and that they were both fighting off the creatures that were around them AND holding back the ones through the portal in the center of that underground fortress -- but then it doesn't explain HOW some of the creatures got into the assaulted temple and into the tunnels. Even so, it does make sense since you're pretty much told that the Hammerites are "holding back" the Maw creatures while you're making your way through it to the Trickster. Maybe it was a joint "Pincer" attack; some creatures gathered together and attacked the temple while others attacked from the portal -- therefore disrupting the Hammerites enough to weaken them. :confused:


In the end I DO KNOW one thing -- and that is that answering the question of how Garrett got into the Maw and to the portal would make a GREAT FM. We already have two or three FMs like "More Time to Foil Karrass" (for one example) for Thief 2 trying to explain what many believe is an unaccounted-for amount of time between certain Thief 2 OMs. It'd be great to see an FM where Garrett has to delve deeper into underground tunnels and ruins to reach the Maw portal (supporting the "Assault from within" theory); or an FM where Garrett has to stalk across perilous rooftops and through dangerous streets to reach the Maw portal while chaos and death begin to fill the streets of the city as the armies of the Trickster begin pouring from every dark corner (supporting the "marched through the city" theory).

I personally like the idea of the latter FM because of the sheer, constant danger Garrett would be in trying not to be killed by both creatures AND dangerous obstacles all while guards and thieves guild members and rogue groups of Hammerites (maybe even a Keeper or two) are fighting a losing struggle against all manner of beasts. Battles would be carried out within buildings and in the streets below, with the sound of shouts and cries and screams and combat and just complete chaos constantly played in the background as you make your way to the portal. Several places would be on fire while others would be torn apart or broken; occasional peasants would be running in absolute fear through the streets; hastily-constructed barricades would be trying in vain to hold back the creatures -- some succeeding with a clever idea, while others would be torn right through inviting wholesale slaughter to its overpowered defenders. People would be thrown through windows to their deaths awaiting them below; explosions from traps would be set off; pathways would be cut off and new ones would emerge from the destruction and carnage all around Garrett as he struggles to reach the Maw portal with the counterfit Eye, almost losing it several times along the way and having to brave deadly obstacles and hair-raising confrontations to retrive it! :eek:

Sorry, got carried away there. Point is: it'd be a great reason to make an awesome FM adventure. :thumb:


[Hmmm....maybe I should suggest this FM in its own thread sometime....]

TafferMonkeys! on 16/1/2007 at 09:28

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....Y'know -- I never thought of that. Wouldn't be impossible. Nice call. :D