jtr7 on 28/4/2007 at 00:43
That's a problem.
Solabusca on 28/4/2007 at 02:32
Quote Posted by R Soul
It's probably the shapes themselves that are magical, not what they're drawn on or with.
That's what I think, too. Hence the changing - it's just ink on parchment - the symbols are the power.
.j.
jtr7 on 28/4/2007 at 03:35
Yeah, that's a problem. Imagine some person drawing random shapes out of boredom and they accidentally draw one of those deadlier glyphs.
And why are the Keepers the only ones who've figured it out?
They could draw some of them backwards or as a series of dots for one to connect later. Heh.
Solabusca on 28/4/2007 at 04:57
Well, the way I figure it, it's not just drawing them - there's an act of will involved, too. Hence why the Glyphs have an effect on those that write them (or read 'em, in the case of the more powerful, older glyphs - hence Caduca's problems...).
So just doodling the glyph doesn't do much - you have to know HOW to draw it, and invest an act of will into it.
Which makes it all the more discomforting when they go off changing by themselves.
.j.
jtr7 on 28/4/2007 at 06:03
Hence, my earlier comments about magic.:) I'm sorry, my words were ill-chosen, I didn't know that readers would fix upon the physical when I meant to highlight the supernatural: Magic.
Ink on parchment has no magic. Symbols alone have no power without the existence of a mind to consider them, unless there's magic. The glyphs in the story are not following the intent of those considering them. Like all the factions in the games, except the City Watch :cheeky:, there is conjuring and spell-casting, so I believe magic can be a factor. The glyphs acted against those who were transcribing them. The Keepers themselves believed the glyphs were acting on their own and they were frightened. The old quotations use similar language. The warning to the scribes about staying in control of the glyphs, or be controlled has multiple meanings, but I believe my point is also valid. The scribes aren't being told to avoid shooting themselves in the foot from thinking upon a glyph with bad intent. The glyph can take control. It doesn't warn about the intent of others wresting control of a glyph from the scribe. A glyph, removed of magic and intent, cannot change itself into something else. Ink replacing ink, some sinking out of sight into the parchment, some drying and floating away, smoke from somewhere. Magic. The symbols became other symbols against the will of those thinking on them and writing them. It happened to Scribes and Elders alike. In the "end," the great majority of the glyphs disappeared through just the intent of the five Sentients (the essence of former Keepers) thinking upon the Final Glyph?
If the rest of the surviving Keepers had known how the failsafe worked, could they have counter-willed the glyphs to stay in existence? If symbols and intent are enough, there is no stopping an experienced, knowledgeable Keeper from drawing ink on parchment and willing power from them, especially an Elder. What's actually stopping Gamall from using glyphs effectively? Why have we been using terms elsewhere like "Glyph Magic," if it isn't magic?
And by the way--I don't know if it's been mentioned before--the Keepers (or Enforcers) that encroach upon Gamall in the final cutscene leave me thinking that there would be a final trial/execution. They are silent, hooded, and walk up slowly, and in unison, very similar to the cutscene that introduces the Enforcers, but with head-bob.:cheeky:
Oh, and chew your "food" thoroughly to aid digestion.:sly:
Ziemanskye on 28/4/2007 at 11:41
Symbols have no "magic" of their own without a mind to consider them.
I'm just repeating that so it stays in my mind while I say this: what if they were in mind anyway: They are an ancient and understood part of the city. Even if only the Keepers knew of them consciously, thousands of people tread the Final Glyph every day, the pattern was known, and one of the big ideas (from what I understand of it) in magic is Contagion.
Subconsicously, trying to stop the Final Glyph through act of will would be like trying to trying to move the orbit of the moon with your mind. I doubt even Gamall could have attempted it.
It goes off, does whatever it does, and everyone kind of goes "Hmm, weird. Wonder what that did?", which multiplied by those in the know thinking "Oh crap, there goes the Glyphs" probably is enough to wipe out the intentionality of trying to recreate the glyphs as they were. To get the power back would likely require an entire new magic language, because they themselves (and so their decendants and such) wouldn't let the old ones still be effective.
Loosely - they expect the Final Glyph to rob them of their powers, and because of this expectation it does exactly that. Afterwards, they expect the (old) glyph forms not to work, so they don't work.
jtr7 on 28/4/2007 at 23:44
Like someone sporting a tattoo of a chinese character, ink and pre-parchment, what power does it truly have? Let's get thousands of people into a place to will it to become a smiley face, without anybody else in the world knowing what's happening in that place. Without the supernatural, without magic, it ain't gonna happen. Even if the thousands are truly separated from all the rest of the population. Even if everybody in the place is truly cooperating, and no one is trying to sabotage the process, and no one is thinking they don't care for this or needing to use the restroom, etc.
Ziemanskye on 29/4/2007 at 09:55
Very little multiplied by a lot.
That's what I was aiming at anyway, but dealing with something as tempermental as any form of magic likely doesn't need much to mess it up.
Ink on paper is just ink on paper - I wasn't meaning to argue with that.
When magic gets involved though it gets harder - ink on paper is magical to the sense it means nothing until you give it meaning. If you cannot give it meaning (because your heart isn't in it anymore, or you know you aren't getting it right but don't have any reference to correct it against), then it's still just ink on paper.
To someone who reads only cuneform, even this discussion would seem magic, in the sense of not making any kind of sense because they cannot read it, but appearing to have structure within it and intelligence behind it.
It's the same with reading patterns anywhere: you can tell there is one - most towns make a kind of sense with their layouts and you just know it even if you never study such things or understand what the pattern means or how it was formed.
Still - all that waffle aside: to my mind, the Glyphs were magic (or at least affected by it), and they now don't work because of either human beliefs or other magic systems. The Hammerites magic and the Pagan's aren't affected by the absense of Keeper Glyphs for example - perhaps the Final Glyph was just an interface to trigger something in some other paradigm.
