morrisonashley on 15/5/2009 at 20:02
I agree totally with the OP as well. I wonder how much of it is to do with trying too hard to replicate a certain filmic experience in games, i.e. placing the emphasis as a designer on the exact story I want to tell rather than giving player's more of an exploration space with broader narrative elements as a context to play in. I've long felt that those kinds of experiences which may "break" the so called, "embedded narrative", actually serve as a bridge to the narrative the player develops themselves through play and interpretation.
Stath MIA on 15/5/2009 at 21:44
Right on brother! :thumb:
S Bodi on 15/5/2009 at 22:23
I agree totally with Fett, but also with Twist: we do not want a sandbox game!
Too Much Coffee on 15/5/2009 at 22:26
Good job. Having limited, obvious choices spoils a genre like this. I'm also reminded of all those large, indiscreet vents in Deus Ex Invisible War. They may as well hung signs that said "Go this way."
clearing on 16/5/2009 at 04:02
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: 100% agree with fett.
belboz on 16/5/2009 at 04:03
You could have fake open levels in thief, instead of objective driven linear paths, you could have the level containing readable's, the readable trigger hidden objectives that only complete on completion of the readable's task.
eg flyer laying in gutter reads that a local museam has a display of ancient gems and art work, or a newspaper article has reports of a rich lord staying at the local inn, spending money like it was confetti. There you have two objectives, break into the museam and pinch gems and art work, you would then have to find out information about the museam like does it have a broken window you can climb through, or is there a way via the sewer system, or can you climb a drainpipe and use your lockpicks to get in through a skylight. 2nd objective rob the lord blind, then for the inn, you would need to find out which room the lord is staying in, do you need a key or can you pick the locks. Are there any guards on either the two places. These readable driven objective missions could be extra levels that are not part of the main story line.
Stupid players would probably just follow the main story line and totally miss the extra levels to the game, while more experienced players would notice thats whats in the readable was actually in game and see if they could actually do what the readable was telling them, they would then get the satisfaction of having found something that others have missed, even thou in the first place there was a linear pointer showing them the way to the extra stuff.
I already tried this in 'Shore Leave' so I know that this works. Also do you know what the linear path through shore leave actually is, or was there actually a linear path.
demagogue on 16/5/2009 at 05:04
You can get some good non-linearity by having multiple ways to get to the same goal, by having the game not care what order you do goals in, or maybe you have to do 3 to open up a new area, but you can do those 3 in any order.
And I tend to like it when a story is also non-linear, spread out among readables and conversations, so you get bits and pieces whichever order you do the mission. It always comes together by the end, but not always in the same order for everybody. I really dig that when done right.
But yes, at the root is the idea that the world is completely open and agnostic. You go where you want, how you want, and the world itself won't stop you. It's also better because then the developers can stop trying to heavy-handedly control the world and game experience itself, and get down to designing a great story and gameplay opportunities *in* the open world they create. This is the inspired legacy of Thief.
SubJeff on 16/5/2009 at 09:56
You are so on the money fett. I'm going to have to link to/quote that OP.
I have TR:Underworld for PS3 and I should tell you that it is a little like the Splinter Cell you describe. There are only certain things you can hold/jump to/climb up. Its not quite as bad as you make SC sound (I have that too but I've only played the tutorial) but it is certainly not as free as Thief 1 and 2.
I hope they can fix this for the Thief 4 iteration of the engine.
Eshaktaar on 16/5/2009 at 10:21
Well written! I ask for more threads like these and less omgwhydotheyspellitlikethatitsallgoingwrong chatter.
