steo on 18/5/2009 at 00:06
Which is why, I think, it should have an open city, but it should be done well.
fett on 18/5/2009 at 00:20
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
From the sounds of it Splinter Cell is just like that. Assassins Creed certainly displays aspects of it, although its world is open enought that the restriction is less obvious. You still only have the option of climbing the bits you are "allowed" to climb. Tomb Raider Underworld gives the illusion of being open but if you try to stray of the path you won't get far.
Exactly. By "open" world, I mean "don't over plan it." Back in the day, the T1 and 2 devs mentioned how they re3alized players were doing all kinds of things they never intended in the gameplay. This was a result of their failure to consciously close off all non-plot relevant areas, or areas that didn't lead directly to the mission goal. The best example of this is the several paths in the Bonehoard that go absolutely nowhere. Today, that would be considered wasted space in a game, or even a possible confusion for the lowest common denominator player. The average gamer would wander into those spaces and think, "But what am I supposed to doooo????" whereas the traditional Thief fan would simply absorb it as a part of the world - part of a normal tomb that was built without much forward planning.
There's also the issue of the world being "used." I mean this in the sense of the first three Star Wars films. The Bonehoard was crumbling, tacked together, falling in on itself, and so was the Old Quarter. If such a place were to feature in Splinter Cell or Assassin's Creed, all the wall designs would match and everything would be equally shaped and proportioned to look symmetric and attractive. The "thrown together" design of Bonehoard, Lost City, LotP, Trail of Blood, etc. resulted in the players finding new ways to climb, jump, mantle, and crawl into areas that were either not intended to be seen by players, or more often not important to the core of the mission goals. This is the PRIMARY reason we have spent 10 years playing the original games - because once the missions are completed, there are myriad map locations still to be explored, played in, and screwed around with. IMO, that is what has inspired the imagination of so many FM authors.
bikerdude on 18/5/2009 at 00:24
Nice one boba..
bikerdude on 18/5/2009 at 00:26
Quote Posted by Abru
T3Ed :)
Oh I let slip a trickle of drool at the thought of playing in a city this big, it would take weeks to explore - yum
Cobak on 18/5/2009 at 02:33
Quote Posted by fett
I was playing Splinter Cell again last night (sorry...) and I was struck again with how important it is to build a game world and simply let the kids
play in it. I was standing on a rooftop and needed to get down. There were all kinds of balconies, rails, light posts, trees, and trellises but Sam wouldn't interact with any of them; He
couldn't interact with any of them. Then I found it: The Magical Stove Pipe. Apparently the single object on the roof that Sam Fischer, spy/navy seal/badass extraordinaire recognized as a legitimate way to climb down from the roof. What's my point?
If I'd been playing Garrett, I would have leaped for the balcony across the way because in Garrett's world, if I can see it, I can interact with it. The other point is that while in Sam's world, he had to stand in a particular place to climb down; in Garrett's world, I'd better be careful about walking on the edge of the roof because one misstep and I'm going to slip off that bitch and fall to my death. Just like in real life, where's there's no pop up window asking if I'd like to rappel. In SC, every time I find the SINGLE window that will slide open on the building, I'm reminded that someone designed it, and Sam becomes just as dead as if he'd been sniped. I'm rudely ejected from the game world, and I hate it.
I've been gaming for almost 20 years and I've never
(NEVER) experienced a greater thrill in a game than the first time I climbed out of the game world in TDP. In fact, some people were so excited by the ability to do that, entire playing styles and websites were created around it - and LGS probably smacked their foreheads and lamented the lack of polish. But they built a world where the player could climb wherever they wanted. If it was made from wood, a rope arrow would stick into it. Sure, there were places where wood beams were put there on purpose, but sometimes it was random, and we got to climb just for the sheer hell of it. I've seen the City from hundreds of unintended angles and looked out over the edge into the void of DromEd and thought, "now
THIS is a game."
It's counter-intuitive to the mindset of today's developers. Games are polished to a shine, and every possible path that a player might take is anticipated, scripted, textured, and plotted to be meaningful. Problem is, it's only meaningful to the developers. I tell you now, there is no greater sense of accomplishment than trying to jump to a forgotten ledge in the Bonehoard for 20 minutes only to find it leads to...a dead end. It's like real life. It's unscripted, and the developer never intended anyone to go there, but I did, so ha. And now that spot
belongs to me - it's what I make it and the experience is
mine, not the developers.
This is what was so painfully cringe inducing about the climbing gloves in TDS. They could only be used where the developer had specifically intended, to accomplish a predetermined goal, at a pre-determined time. I never got to accidentally fall out of the Old Quarter into space, and I'm the poorer for it. It's the difference between discovering something the developer intended, and discovering something on my own. That's the secret of Thief's longevity, and the myriad websites that teach us how to rocket jump to our death in the courtyard of the Cathedral. It's the inspiration behind Lytha style, and Thumpers "strange and unusual" adventures. It's why I spend hours stacking boxes to get to the top of angelwatch, and why I spent days trying to find a spot where I could jump down to the street without failing the mission. It makes for realism and replayability.
So please EM, above all else, don't give us stove pipes and a single window to climb through. Build a world that breathes and let us play in it. We want to fall off roofs, get stuck behind trash bins, and not
quite be able to reach that ledge that there's absolutely nothing behind, but we've
got to get there just in case. That's the secret.
:thumb:
d'Spair on 18/5/2009 at 09:52
Yeah
Cool
But that ain't gonna happen. Games are just very different these days.
Brian The Dog on 18/5/2009 at 18:45
Quote Posted by fett
Well, ISA tried to control equipment hoarding by setting limits on the amount of each item you could carry. Unfortunately, this was merely a concession to the lowest common denominator. The essence of any sneaking game is that you use minimal equipment. 5 Flashbombs and 2 gas grenades are the equivalent of a fucking tank in most other games. Most of us probably don't even buy equipment in the original games any more. I think I may buy rope arrows if there are none in the default inventory, but I can't remember the last time I purchased water, moss, or gas arrows, or especially a flash bomb. The only reason to need a flash bomb is getting caught, which technically you're not supposed to do. I understand the need to make them available (obviously) but why so many?
Yes, I'm currently playing through Thief I to celebrate Thief IV being announced, and at the beginning of each level I max out on water arrows and that's it (I also buy mines/fire arrows with any money left on the zombie-full levels, but only because I want to blow up lots of zombies for a laugh!).
One of the great things about Thief is the multiple methods available. Sure we use minimal equipment now, but the first time I played through Thief I needed all my water arrows and a few flashbombs to get through a level, since I didn't know the guard routes and so on. You could argue I wasn't very good, but at least I could use lots of equipment to get by on Normal. I NEVER used 6 flashbombs in a level though, that's just overkill.
I do agree that the method Ion Storm used was flawed though, since I could be a tank from half-way in the game onwards.
fett on 18/5/2009 at 23:54
It's just one more thing that LGS got right, both in Thief and in SS. Most of the player's fear comes from believing they don't have enough equipment or weapons to deal with the enemies at hand. This forces the player to think and come up with creative solutions to problems. It forces them to explore other routes, look up, down, around, backtrack, etc. It forces them to sneak and hide, to observe. EM cannot underestimate the importance of a balanced economy in Thief - I would argue it's more important to this style of game than any other genre because it does more than just gives the player options - it takes some away, which forces the player into some of the climbing, swinging, and jumping that is at the heart of the game (and sorely missing in TDS). I just replayed The Lost City and was amazed again at how physical Garrett has to be in that mission - it's not quite Laura Croft, but damn sure close to it in places. I can't remember a single time in TDS when I had to stop and really think about how the hell I was going to get across the chasm/over that wall/under that gate. Especially if the problem was too many enemies - I always had enough in my arsenal to mount a full frontal assault.
Then I would hide in my closet and weep for the Thief player I had once been...:(
Beleg Cúthalion on 19/5/2009 at 06:51
I just ask myself if I'm a better Thief player if I manage to not use all the equipment although I have it. The abundance of flash bombs etc. in TDS only came in handy in those City sections but never in a mission. There were also some nice possibilities for climbing (and the TDS Garrett climbed better than in TDP/TMA which was always a pain when there were fences in the way... I had a thief who couldn't climb over a simple metal fence), only they weren't required for playing the mission. Just for extra loot and the like.
pavlovscat on 19/5/2009 at 16:14
Good point, Beleg! I often play to use as little gear as possible. I can often make it through a map using nothing but water arrows or a moss arrow or two. Though sometimes it is fun just to play around with all the toys. ;)
I definitely want to see rope arrows in T4, but I would like to have the climbing gloves as well. Then you could get just about anywhere.
