belboz on 15/6/2009 at 13:54
Well the texture looked the same to me, dont like the climb gloves either, as climbing gloves are usually used to climb wet rocks when hands would normally slip (not seen much now as so called free climbers now use chalk, supposed to be unaided but the chalk is an aid), or the other instance of climbing gloves is wet ice climbing, just to stop your hands sliding down the icepick handle, or the gloves used for repelling so you dont get rope burn. Climbing gloves in thief dont work cause garretts knees would slip off the wall. And why cant he climb the drain pipes, they would be easy to climb even without gloves. Lack off freedom with drain pipes.
fett on 18/6/2009 at 02:49
Back to SC, it's terrible that Sam can climb drain pipes, but only the ones necessary to get to the next part of the mission - the ones the designers intended instead of the ones you want to climb, even if just for the hell of it. I can't understand how developers don't realize that this is fundamentally bad, bad, bad design that undermines the entire purpose of even the most basic game - immersion.
Dresden on 18/6/2009 at 04:09
Aren't those pipes usually the only pipes in the levels?
belboz on 18/6/2009 at 05:17
Its probably the beta testers that bugger up some level design and not the actual designers, you usually get 2 or 3 of them deciding in what direction some thing is going in and they get all stroppy if they get ignored. This be based on something me helping to alpha test, cant say what as the nda is pretty heavy.
hexhunter on 18/6/2009 at 18:09
Quote Posted by Dresden
Aren't those pipes usually the only pipes in the levels?
I don't think this complaint really stands against CT or DA, both had no invisible walls and no unclimable pipes/ledges.
The issue I was talking about is that, for example, the rooftops and balconies you used were the only ones in the whole city, the backgrounds were bland, simply the same windows repeated over and over.
I guess it just seemed to me like CT was designed without real world experience in mind, but the 7th gen version of DA seemed better and Malta in the Conviction demo looked so realistic and unlimited, Ubi have learned on that front.
Back to Thief, I don't think any special reason is needed to lock off the cities districts early in the game, it makes sense that the council would lock all the gates at night to prevent people like Garrett getting to the more prosperous areas.
I honestly don't think we should be limited that much, maybe a couple of districts and the countryside could be off limits until about half way through the game.
But the main point of the city should not be that it is like one massive level in and of itself, it's more an artistic approach to framing the missions, the City changes between each region and even each night of the story. It shouldn't be made with the idea that it'll be just another level at the end of the game like in TDS, more like the way Assassins and Unwelcome Guest were made...
*Zaccheus* on 19/6/2009 at 16:03
Another old-timer in agreement with Fett here. ;)
What makes exploring in Thief so powerful for me is that the point of Thief is to steal stuff and that stuff can be anywhere.
Notice that hole in the ground in deep shadow? The one you walked past ten times before? Yes, that last little copper coin stack you cannot find is down that tunnel, under the rotting barrel in the water. :p
This encourages level designers to add random terrain to their missions which may or may not contain what you are looking for. :)
belboz on 20/6/2009 at 04:30
The whole point of an open world is that its open but you can use missdirection to keep people out of area's you dont want them in yet, via the simple thing as a locked door, and have something like garrett saying that the lock is too complicated for him to pick and finding the key would be better, rather than generic text saying you can't go that way yet, or letting garrett pick the lock to be greeted with a rattling door where he says 'taff, must be barred on the inside.'
And not do what they did with doors in tds where they put a metal grille over the door, not only did it look odd, but sometimes looked like it had been half inched out of silent hill.
fett on 21/6/2009 at 16:15
The most annoying example of that are places where a character can jump four feet to reach a ledge that's mission crucial, but can't hop onto a 1 ft. high block or box. :rolleyes: Designers who pull that shit need to get a job flipping burgers.
Mortis on 23/6/2009 at 00:23
Just wondering how an open world and missions would interconnect. Say for example you have full access to the city. Then you have a mission such as rob Mansion X in Auldale. Would your character have access to the building before gettin the mission ? Would he have been able to case the joint in a previous visit ? If yes the would the mission specific loot be in there already ? How would you separate the mansion into a 'mission', how does the mission commence and once it does what prevents you from knocking out a few guards, going back to the city, restocking on ammo and getting in there again ? Would you be able to get 20 haunts from a graveyard to chase you into the place and make them and the guards fight it out ?
jtr7 on 23/6/2009 at 00:37
I think building a connected city would screw things up, be impossible to meet the deadline, and prevent us from going to The City's edge and beyond without a jump-cut to distant locations. I think one mission four times the size of one big TMA map, but more detailed, and with more accessible spaces, and AI filling it out, multiplied by roughly fifteen missions would be puh-lently! With days, weeks, and months separating missions again, with four seasons, and only one-to-four back-to-back missions. They still have the same amount of time to make this game as the LGS devs had to make what they did, and EM's only using modest sized teams of 80, and the Thief team is going to be built around a core of 20 who gained their experience on Deus Ex 3--which I hope means they know the engine, they know the tools, and can hit the ground running, saving a hell of a lot of development time.
