Stath MIA on 10/5/2009 at 17:28
I don't think I've ever heard that theory before, quite disturbing. I've always liked the idea that the Trickster's denizens are really mutated humans, it just seems like something he'd do, and that therefore inter-species breeding with these sub-races would be theoretically possible, if not desirable. A tale on such would make for a rather interesting, and disturbing, play in Karath Din.
Solabusca on 23/5/2009 at 18:51
Quote Posted by jtr7
You know, I can't remember if anybody ever suggested
cross-breeding before. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. That's never occurred to me. Yeah, scary thought.:erm: We can only speculate about their breeding habits from those huge eggs in the hatchery. And unless this is like a
Star Trek universe where different races can interbreed, it would mean they already share DNA. It occurs to me too that those eggs, coincidentally, are about the size of the Maw foetuses' membranes coming through Constantine's portal. As you probably know, the common speculation has been the possibility that one race evolved from the other, and that would bring new meaning to the Keeper's words calling the Kurshok a Pagan off-shoot race.
I know I've made the (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_One) Deep One reference before, jtr7 - taking a look at the progression of masks, I'm willing to say that at least SOME of the Precursors intermingled (blasphemously?) with the Kurshok ancestors.
I still think that the Kurshok we encounter in TDS are post-cataclysm entities - but that follows the train of thought that the gods of KD and the Trickster are not the same. KD worshipped ancient eldritch Mythos beings, as has been discussed elsewhere. The Trickster seems like part of a pantheon that came into existence after KD's destruction, a pantheon which was in turn toppled by the creation of the church of the Master Builder.
Solabusca on 24/5/2009 at 05:26
Quote Posted by Abysmal
The Citadel is simply the Trickster/Chaos side of the Lost City, where Karath-Din was the Builder/Order side. Same era, different factions and consequences. None of this was said outright, but it seemed pretty implied.
Except for the fact that we have a pretty damned clear idea that the Precursors worshiped their own gods, based on the physical evidence on site (both the statue of Cthulhu and the written records found around the site).
No mention of the Trickster or the Builder in Precursor times - which is also why I suggest that the Kurshok fall happens post-cataclysm as well.
ShyGreenMoon on 24/5/2009 at 08:21
I could be wrong, but I thought it was not that the Kurshok worshiped false gods so much as they felt themselves to no longer need the Trickster. Their sin was pride, and they saw themselves as being on equal footing to, or greater than, the Trickster. A sort of Tower of Babel story.
Solabusca on 25/5/2009 at 04:50
Quote Posted by Abysmal
They started worshiping false gods, which brought their downfall, correct? But they would still have ties to the Builder/Trickster, dating far back before those events.
The Precursor fish masks and architectural similarities are too hard to ignore. I still believe they are two sides of the same coin. There is not enough evidence to prove it either way, so the player is left to fill in the pieces.
Where do you get that idea from? I can recall no mention in the game of the Precursors worshiping false gods.
From the in-game material, the Builder is pretty clearly stated to be a newer god - the Trickster is one of the Old Gods (the pantheon that the Builder and the church of the Hammerites have overtaken), whereas the Builder's church is of more recent vintage.
At no point in the game is it indicated that the Builder OR the Trickster existed in the Precursor era. There appears to be every indication of the Precursors worhiping ancient gods - the ancient, eldritch beings of the Mythos, primarily - and that in the wake of the Precursor Diaspora, newer religions sprang up, with NEW gods coming into being. Which, truth be told, fits with the myths and legends of our own world, as well as fitting the interaction between various religions in the transition between ancient and modern eras.
Interesting tangent - Minoan influence on the design of the Lost City by gamedevs.
.j.
Stath MIA on 26/5/2009 at 02:42
I'm mostly with Solabusca on this, I doubt that the two civilizations were one and the same. Perhaps, in the way of the world, one society arose from the others ashes, when the Precursors were destroyed (possibly by the Trickster or their own gods) the Kurshok, who were already around (as referenced by the masks) but not in dominance, rose to power and built their society atop the Precursors ruins. Then they got too high on themselves and the Trickster smited them, (begin fanon-speculation) he then decided that allowing his denizens to build strong civilizations would eventually cause them to turn on them on so he changed his plans to a more aggro-centric society which lasted until the founders of The City arrived from the sea (end fanon-speculation).
nicked on 26/5/2009 at 13:00
I always found the idea of the Trickster existing at the same time as the precursors to be very unlikely.
1. If he was around, who was worshipping him? Not the precursors, they were praying to eldritch beings with names like Nyarlhotep.
2. If the Trickster was around then, he would have witnessed the fall of Karath-Din and would have knowledge of the Lost City. If this were true, why would the Keepers use it as a hiding place for talisman/s? My feeling is the Keepers knew Karath-Din was unknown to Constantine, and would make a good hiding place.
I get the impression the Kurshok were banished relatively recently (like ~500 years ago) when the Trickster was at the height of his power, and the Hammerite religion had not yet "overcome the darkness" and reduced the Trickster to a legend (compare our world: 1400s dark ages - 1900s in terms of technological advancement from the Hammerites)
The Lost City is far older imo - the hieroglyphs and Egyptian building-style would suggest they were going for a thousands-of-years-old civilisation. This can be seen by the fact that a massive new city had time to be built over it, and for all rumours of the Lost City to be lost in the mists of time.
So I'd say: Precursors = 2000-3000 years ago
Kurshok = 500 years ago
Beleg Cúthalion on 26/5/2009 at 13:36
Well, as easily as the Trickster could be taken out by Garrett, I'd doubt that he's the only Pagan god/incarnation/whatever and that would make it quite probable for him not to know much about the Lost City. After all he could have broken into the Mage Towers as well.
But what's that bit about Nyarlhotep..? :weird: God or priest? Only or one of many deities? Canon? Honestly I cannot remember reading this.
Solabusca on 26/5/2009 at 22:27
Quote Posted by Stath MIA
I'm mostly with Solabusca on this, I doubt that the two civilizations were one and the same. Perhaps, in the way of the world, one society arose from the others ashes, when the Precursors were destroyed (possibly by the Trickster or their own gods) the Kurshok, who were already around (as referenced by the masks) but not in dominance, rose to power and built their society atop the Precursors ruins. Then they got too high on themselves and the Trickster smited them, (begin fanon-speculation) he then decided that allowing his denizens to build strong civilizations would eventually cause them to turn on them on so he changed his plans to a more aggro-centric society which lasted until the founders of The City arrived from the sea (end fanon-speculation).
Pretty much my speculation as well. The masks made me revise a few things, but I'd say that you're on the money.
.j.
