Jason Moyer on 17/4/2012 at 00:38
K
june gloom on 17/4/2012 at 01:13
I'm sorry, but go far enough back and game mechanics just turn into a fiddly mess with a lot of "wtf did that do?"
Wasteland is unplayable today. Whereas Fallout is pretty intuitive, even today -- you initiate combat, select the gun you want and whether to aim it or not, you click on the fucko you want to kill...
Not to mention items on the ground are highlighted when you mouse over them, and things you can use are often marked by the cursor as such.
And that's just for starters. I could go on about the stupid shit that Wasteland doesn't tell you about that you're supposed to do and have no idea. Whereas Fallout is pretty simple (barring when quests are broken) -- go here, talk to these guys, maybe shoot a few assholes, get clues where to go next, move on.
Stitch on 17/4/2012 at 15:25
TAKE IT TO ANOTHER THREAD, FATTIES
Quote Posted by Angel Dust
As someone who never played these kind of games when they came out, and didn't really bother with them later either, I can vouch for this. This game is fucking fantastic. There's something so satisfying about being trapped in a huge dungeon (and it's so great to have a real dungeon rather than the poxy little things you usually get these days), exploring it tile by tile, looking for secrets and keeping an ear our for nasty beasties.
Yeah, a close friend of mine is also having a blast with Grimrock despite never having really gotten into DM or EotB.
I will say, though, that while Grimrock is scratching a certain itch that has gone neglected for a good 25 years, I'd
also love to see a less game-y dungeoncrawl that does massive, sprawling underground complexes with a little more realism and depth. A game that takes the concept of descending into a dungeon full of puzzles and traps and monsters and fully updates it with, y'know, a working dungeon ecology, puzzles that make sense within the context of who might have set them, underground halls with a sense of history, and areas that possibly contain something resembling a civilization.
That sort of thing.But that would be a very different game, and sometimes you just want puzzles, traps, and monsters that are placed with no regard beyond building one hell of a game level :cool:
Malf on 17/4/2012 at 16:09
Dwarf Fortress'll do that for you Stitch.
First, create a fortress in Dwarf mode, try and run it for a few years building up defenses to keep out invaders, engraving walls with the history of your dwarves, making cool weapons and armour for them, then when the fortress finally falls, start an adventurer and find your old fortress. Your fortress becomes a dungeon for your adventurer to explore, and makes sense in a working way, with living quarters, dining rooms, traps, etc.
Okay, I know it's not quite what you meant, but it ticks a lot of boxes :)
Al_B on 17/4/2012 at 16:11
Quote Posted by Stitch
A game that takes the concept of descending into a dungeon full of puzzles and traps and monsters and fully updates it with, y'know, a working dungeon ecology, puzzles that make sense within the context of who might have set them, underground halls with a sense of history, and areas that possibly contain something resembling a civilization.
That's what I loved about the Underworld games when they came out. The atmosphere of the games along with the amount of effort that had been spent on making (semi) believable dungeon environments made it more than a straightforward crawl.
Stitch on 17/4/2012 at 18:06
Quote Posted by Malf
Okay, I know it's not
quite what you meant, but it ticks a lot of boxes :)
holy shit is Dwarf Fortress NOT what I'm talking about
Jason Moyer on 17/4/2012 at 21:03
Quote Posted by dethtoll
I'm sorry, but go far enough back and game mechanics just turn into a fiddly mess with a lot of "wtf did that do?"
Wasteland is unplayable today. Whereas Fallout is pretty intuitive, even today -- you initiate combat, select the gun you want and whether to aim it or not, you click on the fucko you want to kill...
I guess I can see how Wasteland's interface would seem weird to a modern gamer who doesn't remember what owning a PC without a mouse was like, but I've always found Wasteland/Dragon Wars/Bard's Tale to be about as straight-forward as cRPG's can get.
Renzatic on 18/4/2012 at 06:20
Quote Posted by Stitch
Playing this spiritual sequel in my 30's to a game I played when I was twelve is also an interesting experience. In my five or so hours with Grimrock I've easily conquered more of its dungeon than I ever did in Dungeon Master, and yet I seem to remember playing the latter quite a bit. What the fuck was I doing? Starting and restarting, I seem to remember, and yet somehow never really getting comfortable enough with the game to make progress beyond the top few levels. Gameplay now is pretty linear for me--face a challenge and conquer it, move on to the next challenge--so it's weird to have this glimpse back into the young version of me that wasn't very good at breaking down and playing video games.
You know, this game manages to stir up the exact same feelings for me, and made me ponder upon the same thoughts.
I remember getting in a discussion on Steam awhile back about how I look at games now as opposed to how I used to view them when I was younger. Nowadays, I approach games pretty much how you described: a linear set of challenges I work through methodically. This isn't to say that playing games these days completely lacks atmosphere and a sense of place for me, but it isn't quite the same as it was back in the day. I don't get lost in games like I used to. I know how to better work the underlying rules to my advantage, I know how to methodically approach differing situations. I can break it all down, and plow right through it.
Now I never got to play Dungeon Master back when. Even though I had an Atari ST, I never even heard of it up til the late 90's. The three games I remember most fondly from that system were Space Quest 3, Kings Quest IV, and The Secret of Monkey Island. I think back to playing them, and remember that each screen was a new experience uncovered, finding a new place a triumph. Every location offered up an entirely new set of mysteries just begging to be solved. I think it's that sense of hard earned discovery I miss most. The methodical process I bring to games these days makes each new screen, each new area, feel more like progression, less like...whoa...neat...this is a whole new place! That cave looks like a skull! I'm scared.
Legend of Grimrock is the one game I've played recently that comes closest to bringing that old feeling of discovery back. It doesn't give up it's secrets easily. You have to earn progress in this game. And earning it sometimes means you have to stumble about until you come upon the solution almost by serendipity. Thinking about what I just went through, the Maze of Madness down on the 5th floor. Putzing about, drawing out a map on paper to figure out what went where and still not being able to make sense of it until...oh okay, there it is. Hell yeah! I DID IT! It felt oldschool in a good way. It doesn't coddle you. It expects you to get stuck occasion. And it doesn't care a bit about how long you're stuck. Once you get past one of it's challenges, you know the next is likely to be that much tougher. It makes you feel a little worried. Makes you look around at everything beyond a little more wide eyed and awestruck, wondering what's around that next corner.
Yeah. Whatever. TLDR. This game is fucking great.
Koki on 18/4/2012 at 06:26
The question is, since it's apparently just Dungeon Master/2 with worse XP system and worse spell system...
Why play Grimrock and not Dungeon Master/2?
Renzatic on 18/4/2012 at 06:34
I guess because we're all goddamn fucking dumb.
But yeah, I'm gonna give it a roll after I beat this.
