Stitch on 18/4/2012 at 16:39
Return to Chaos does seem to be the best current means of giving the original Dungeon Master a spin, so there really is no excuse to not play it for those looking for the original 3D dungeon experience.
As for the "why play Grimrock and not Dungeon Master?" question: first of all, Grimrock simply presents an awesome dungeon, one that provides a far better proper sequel to Dungeon Master than DM II ever did. The game is well worth playing in its own right, either as "more Dungeon Master" or as a stand-alone experience.
And secondly--sidestepping the larger issue of hurdles many encounter with legacy gaming in general--I'd argue that Dungeon Master partially succeeded due to an atmosphere to which the passing of time has not been kind. Dungeon Master wasn't just a cool game with a neat magic system and fun gameplay, it was the first realtime 3D "you-are-fucking-there" role playing video game. The game world wasn't just thick boxes demarcating rooms and icons representing threats and treasures, but long chambers that disappeared off into darkness and monsters that could creep up from behind and scare the shit out of you if you weren't paying attention. It was a groundbreaking experience of unparalleled virtual dungeon crawling.
And now it looks like exactly what it is: a relic from a bygone age. Oh, it will still work its charms if you give it the space, and the gameplay (mostly) hasn't aged a day, but the experience the game provided that initially drew in me and countless others hasn't exactly survived these 20-something years intact. The game is still as fun as it ever was, but the core reason Dungeon Master hangs so heavily over my childhood simply isn't there anymore.
Which is pretty common with games that use cutting edge technology to provide a previously unknown level of immersion, but we're lucky enough to have a new game called Grimrock that manages to update the formula for the modern age. Grimrock isn't going to revolutionize its genre and create a legion of converts the way Dungeon Master did in the day, but it comes far closer in 2012 to the feel of playing Dungeon Master circa 1988.
Not that Dungeon Master isn't worth playing now, but Grimrock does justice to its forefathers while easily justifying its own existence.
justmea on 19/4/2012 at 00:37
fuck those running out torches and any levels infested with spiders
Jason Moyer on 19/4/2012 at 01:02
I find managing food to be a much bigger pain in the ass than the torches, which I have a massive stockpile of.
Melan on 19/4/2012 at 07:20
So far, I have avoided the food problem by avoiding sleeping (and even forget there was an option for it). Characters don't get hungry so fast this way, and the game has no rules for insomnia. :p
Koki on 19/4/2012 at 10:02
Screw you guys, I'm playing Dungeon Master.
The system in this game is fucking amazing.
Malf on 19/4/2012 at 10:16
What system Koki? Experience? Magic? Combat? Food? Water?
Overall, Grimrock works mostly in the same way, but isn't quite as refined. I think that's from necessity, as they've imposed a feat system and locked spells and abilities based on points invested in skill lines. This leaves it feeling a lot less open than DM's system.
To be honest, I'd love to see an open-world game like Skyrim with DM's systems. I think it could work really well.
Koki on 19/4/2012 at 12:24
Quote Posted by Malf
Overall, Grimrock works mostly in the same way, but isn't
quite as refined. I think that's from necessity, as they've imposed a feat system and locked spells and abilities based on points invested in skill lines. This leaves it feeling a lot less open than DM's system.
Yeah, that what puts me off the game. DM is completely open and classless. I fucking love classless systems where you're one thing and then if you want to be another thing, then you just start doing it - no restrictions, no rerolling or making another char. I asked if you can go solo in Grimrock but even if you could, you wouldn't go far because you're limited by the amount of experience you can get. In DM, you can be a master of everything as long as you spend enough time practicing it(even if it means throwing a scroll at a closed door for four hours).
And the spell system in DM? Probably best ever.
Now DM is a pretty simple game so despite an advanced system - there's relatively few skills, spells and even stats. But the framework is there. I mean shit, there's 216 possible spell combinations(not counting the power runes) and the game uses like 20.
Quote:
To be honest, I'd love to see an open-world game like Skyrim with DM's systems. I think it could work really well.
It would be orgasmic.
Funny you mention Skyrim because it's kind of a similar idea(do thing, get better at it, get better overall from doing it) but much more primitive in execution and more limiting because of the perk system which forces you to spec.
As usual, in the videogame industry you go backwards the more you go forwards
Malf on 19/4/2012 at 12:45
It's difficult to be objective about DM's system however, as I'm a total fanboy and it's probably my favourite CRPG system ever.
But yeah, even when you have a complete magical black hole like Halk the Barbarian in your party, when you first discover you can turn him in to a mage by giving him a piece of equipment that artificially gives him some mana? Man, that's fucking AWESOME. It's this flexibility that first gained my admiration, and while other games attempted to mimic it, nothing has done it as well.
Sure, given a big enough world and enough time you end up with a situation where eventually your characters will be Mon masters in every discipline, but the beauty there is that even at such levels of expertise, monsters in DM could still take you by surprise and ruin your day.
faetal on 19/4/2012 at 12:50
Koki, did you recently inherit some money? You seem very agreeable and chipper of late.
DDL on 19/4/2012 at 13:49
Quote Posted by Koki
Funny you mention Skyrim because it's kind of a similar idea(do thing, get better at it, get better overall from doing it) but much more primitive in execution and more limiting because of the perk system which forces you to spec.
As usual, in the videogame industry you go backwards the more you go forwards
Wasn't the whole point of the perk system to try and get AWAY from the 'master of ALL' phenotype that elder scrolls games otherwise always produced?
I mean, in Morrowind or oblivion you can start out as pretty much whatever you like, but by the end you'll always be a super magical-archer-barbarian-assassin-rogue, unless you deliberately enforce class restriction on yourself. And I think people objected to that (for some reason).
I personally still think SOME class restriction is good, just because it adds variety to a system that is otherwise likely to produce a lot of homegeneity: so something like, say...guild wars, where every skill was availble to every class, so you
could be a warrior with straight necro skills if you wanted, but a necro would always be
better at utilising those skills.
So you could still have your barbarian mages, but they'd be outmatched by actual dedicated mages in anything not involving muscle.
Or maybe that's how DM works? I never played it when I was younger.
