Muzman on 29/8/2011 at 23:42
With the endless parade of side scrolling platformers and shoot -em ups, people complaining there aren't enough isometric turn based tactical games and other such stuff, I'm surprised this particular well of nostalgia has been plumbed long before now.
(not too long, or it wouldn't be as nostalgic I guess)
Renzatic on 30/8/2011 at 00:51
Quote Posted by Melan
That's a bit like saying we should stop enjoying books now that we have invented computers, since computers can store
sooo much more data.
A better analogy would be like saying we should stop playing boardgames, because computers can do all kinds of crazy stuff like games with thousands of little soldiers being rendered in realtime 3D graphics and stuff. Boardgames are just pewter bullshit.
And the proper response would be yeah, that's true. But some people like the way boardgames play. Which kind of applies to Grimrock here. It's true that those oldschool dungeon crawlers were just a small step along the road to the realtime 3D RPGs we have today. But they have a certain style of gameplay that hasn't quite been replicated in these newer, fancier games, and is still enjoyable even now. As such, remaking one with modern graphics isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Man. My posts are starting to sound like something straight out of a logic textbook. I think I'm turning into a robot.
Melan on 30/8/2011 at 06:56
Yeah, what Renzatic wrote. These are games. Games employ different levels of abstraction. You don't move around freely in Civilization, you move around on a square (now hex) grid, although you could easily make the game vector-based. The grid works for that particular experience, while 90 degree turns work for the kind of puzzly dungeon-crawling game this one is supposed to be.
There are also other concerns. As technology advances, older innovations are largely phased out and replaced. But vintage technology lives on because it has more to offer than a strictly utilitarian value - there is beauty, comfort, and maybe even advantages which were lost with newer products. I use a pocketwatch because it looks damn good, and wristwatches make me uncomfortable. I write with a fountain pen because it is very comfortable to use, does not tire my hand as fast, and my writing is neater with it. These are legitimate reasons to like "old" stuff.
Not to mention that, on our technological level, we cannot just imitate old technology - we can often take the best it has to offer and package it as highly efficient, highly polished products. I mean, this Grimrock game is not in VGA, has a lot higher res than EOB ever did, and it has a lighting engine, normalmapped textures and all that. Assuming the same expenditure of effort and talent, it should not be the equivalent of EOB, it should be EOB+++ - without straying from the basic formula.
I know this can be hard to accept for some gearheads, but you will just have to deal with it, folks. :cool:
Shadowcat on 30/8/2011 at 09:56
^^ What they said.
Thirith on 30/8/2011 at 10:40
This reminds me so much of Dungeon Master - a game that I always found fascinating but never managed to be very good at, most likely because 1) my English wasn't that great at the time and, more importantly, 2) I was playing a not-entirely-legal version on the Amiga that didn't come with a manual.
With many of these games, I wonder: will my nostalgia be enough to make them enjoyable? I remember many an afternoon frittered away playing The Bard's Tale III, drawing maps etc., but when I tried that Devil's Whiskey (is that what it's called?) demo I played it for ~10 minutes before quitting and deinstalling it.
CCCToad on 30/8/2011 at 11:47
Quote:
I'm a big RPG nerd but even so, at the age of 23, I'm already completely unenthusiastic about playing the "new and shiny" games like Dragon Age or (to a degree) the witcher because "oh look another game about mountain-hiding gnomes, tree-loving elves and dragons where I'll get to explore dungeons with giant spiders and zombies. Also, magic fucking missle."
The Witcher is anything BUT a game like that. There's no mountain-hiding gnomes, the elves are anything but peaceful and tree-hugging, and the only Dragon in the games shows up in game 2 and plays a role in the plot which is far more interesting than your typical fantasy fare.
Quote:
I write with a fountain pen because it is very comfortable to use, does not tire my hand as fast, and my writing is neater with it. These are legitimate reasons to like "old" stuff.
Pfft. Personally, I choose to write on parchment using a quill.
When it comes to fantasy games though, there's always been one huge, glaring gap as far as gameplay goes: the magic system. Its typically no more complex than just memorizing pre-given spells each of which has a single effect. I'd like to something thats much more dynamic and involved, one that will make me feel like I actually AM a wizard. Oblivion and Two Worlds 2 were a step in the right direction by allowing the player to combine effects to make their own spells but there's still a lot to be done.
A poster on another forum summed up the problem well:
Quote:
in universe mages are typically supposed to be sages and scholars, who spend a lot of time researching spells and uncovering secrets beyond comprehension of ordinary mortals, in game they throw fireballs at stuff.
Typically, my ability to play a mage character in any first person fantasy games comes down to how quickly I can spam "magic missile" or "fireball" instead of my skill with the magic system and level of preparation. From the sound of things the only games to actually do it right were the Ultima series(haven't played them). Sorcery seems like a step in the right direction, but the limited number of spells it uses limits its promise.
It would also be good to see games that do more to reward players who are creative in their use of it. For example, how about having items hidden underwater in areas that can't be reached without a water breathing spell? Or an area guarded by enemies who can't be destroyed by conventional means, but only be repelled by light magic?
Matthew on 30/8/2011 at 13:06
I still lament that Legend / Four Crystals of Trazere's runic magic system wasn't taken up and refined by later games.
EvaUnit02 on 30/8/2011 at 15:02
Quote Posted by CCCToad
It would also be good to see games that do more to reward players who are creative in their use of it. For example, how about having items hidden underwater in areas that can't be reached without a water breathing spell? Or an area guarded by enemies who can't be destroyed by conventional means, but only be repelled by light magic?
So in others words, Trine.
Stitch on 30/8/2011 at 15:21
Quote Posted by Sulphur
This is a step backwards. And for what? Nostalgia?
No, for gameplay. That old tile-based fixed-perspective gameplay, which complete freedom of movement doesn't touch. It's a bit like the recent-ish rebirth in sidescrollers despite 3D games supposedly doing them in fifteen years ago.
Don't get me wrong, I'd also love a thoroughly 3-D full freedom dungeon crawler as that would scratch a completely different itch, but the guy whose childhood was cast deep in Dungeon Master's shadow just got a new game to hotly anticipate.
sNeaksieGarrett on 30/8/2011 at 15:42
I saw this game thanks to a notch tweet. All I can say is I'm not really interested, because it just seems like an iphone type of game. Not that there is anything wrong with that if you like playing iphone games. For me, I don't have an iphone (yes I'm aware it's on PC as well as iOS), and the style they are going for doesn't seem that appealing to me. Plus I have other RPGs to take up my time.
