The Mechanists' technology.

MaxDZ8 on 21/6/2009 at 09:43

Quote Posted by MaxDZ8

Well, this was a weak theory since the start I don't really care if it is accepted or not regardless of some quirks here and there... but let's go back to the point.

To me, the tech evolution in Thief sounds very coherent for a simple reason it surfaced by itself:

Quote Posted by Namdrol

Everyone must know this-

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C Clarke

I do magic everyday even by collague' standards (back when I had), I wonder at that point if Beleg really meant that:

Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion

I believe the "amount of tech" to make the eye work as an eye is about the same to make the robots recognize friend and foe or find their way home. The rest is just tech

I think the orginal words were chosen carefully.

Platinumoxicity on 21/6/2009 at 09:56

Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion

I believe the "amount of magic" to make the eye work as an eye is about the same to make the robots recognize friend and foe or find their way home. The rest is just mechanic, the eye is a little spy glass and the robots quite complex moving...things. Yes, I guess they're consistent. However, Karras will be convinced as well that the mechanical eye is the Builder's gift to Garrett. :p

There doesn't have to be magic in these machines.
How do you know that Karras didn't invent steam-digital logical circuits? A sort of mechanic computer based on very small steampipes that direct different amount of pressure through logical AND, OR, NOT, NOR, XOR or XNOR gates.

Inline Image:

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4390/logic.png

And here thou hast the fully functional, steam-powered "Builder's 8-bit Full Adder"!

Inline Image:

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9076/adder.png

Beleg Cúthalion on 21/6/2009 at 20:08

Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity

And here thou hast the fully functional, steam-powered "Builder's 8-bit Full Adder"!

There was a thread about the old English grammar over at the DromEd guild. I wonder if "and here hast thou..." would work as well. Anyway, reminds me of the punchcard intelligence in Perdido Street Station.

About the eye and robots; I merely brought it up against the idea that the eye was so technically-sophisticated that it could not have been the work of humans - which is IMHO not true because I think robots aren't simpler. Plus - and to come back to the original topic - both Hammerites and Mechanists actively use magic and if the mechanical eye was only "magic" in the "sufficiently advanced technology" way, this would be even more obvious illogicalness from the evolutionary point of view. I rarely admit it, but this is a place where I like magic.

Just a thought: They make small spyglasses (mechanical eyes, orbs) and they have gunpowder. What prevents them from making matchlock guns (or at least using more crossbows in the streets like any late-medieval soldiers in urban environment)? Why were over fifty years of electricity not enough to provide power supply for or lay gas on every house? Why are there no overhead cables either? The point of ridiculousness is not somewhere in the distance, it's already there. No one likes the lack of technology in TDS but I think - except for the blue flashes in St Edgar's and the museum - it managed not to stand out in a negative way.

Aesthetics are a different thing of course but too little reason throws you out of immersion. In my case it starts with wrong archery techniques.

jtr7 on 21/6/2009 at 20:39

Why do you play the games? What about them compels you to keep playing in spite of all the eye-rolling annoyances?:weird:

It's not science fiction, and certainly not hard science fiction, it only contains elements, like it contains a thousand disparate elements. So you don't like a lot of them. So..what...

Is it a fallacy to believe Thief is not for you?

Platinumoxicity on 21/6/2009 at 20:54

Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion

Just a thought: They make small spyglasses (mechanical eyes, orbs) and they have gunpowder. What prevents them from making matchlock guns (or at least using more crossbows in the streets like any late-medieval soldiers in urban environment)? Why were over fifty years of electricity not enough to provide power supply for or lay gas on every house? Why are there no overhead cables either? The point of ridiculousness is not somewhere in the distance, it's already there. No one likes the lack of technology in TDS but I think – except for the blue flashes in St Edgar's and the museum – it managed not to stand out in a negative way.

Aesthetics are a different thing of course but too little reason throws you out of immersion. In my case it starts with wrong archery techniques.

Do you mean ridiculousness in a bad thing or a good thing. I personally think that the ridiculousness and illogical timeline of the technologies in Thief is one of the best aspects of the world.

What prevents them from making matchlock guns?
Remember the sound that the weapon of the iron beasts makes? It's not a cannon, it's a slingshot. Gunpowder-based combustion devices have been invented, but the combustion energy hasn't been harnessed to drive projectiles in a gun barrel.

And are you sure that the "real-world historically incorrect" weapon choices of the guards in the "Thiefverse" are the problem that throws you out of immersion? I mean, srsly now. Personally, I don't care whether the enemies have crossbows or regular bows, as long as I can have my short bow. :)

jtr7 on 21/6/2009 at 21:07

Beleg is unable to recognize his own ridiculousness.

But I await his FM! Where he has more control over much that annoys him.:thumb:

Beleg Cúthalion on 21/6/2009 at 21:09

This was just the (second and this time) in extenso response to Wormrat:

Quote Posted by Wormrat

I mean, things were already getting pretty ridiculous with the Cetus Amicus and autonomous security robots [...]

On the other hand, people around here go unnoticed/uncommented when they say that NOT seeing electrical devices which blow brown bubbles into the air throws them out of immersion.

Stath MIA on 21/6/2009 at 21:13

@Platinumoxicity- Cool designs!

Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion

Just a thought: They make small spyglasses (mechanical eyes, orbs) and they have gunpowder. What prevents them from making matchlock guns

That would have been the logical next step had the Mechs survived, they had developed explosive artillery which, if my history is correct, is the direct predecessor to modern firearms. Had the Mechs survived I guarantee you matchlocks would have developed.

Quote:

(or at least using more crossbows in the streets like any late-medieval soldiers in urban environment)?

People are slow to adapt. The Mechs have only been around for a couple years at most, and a society which, by all evidence, has remained in a very homeostatic state for generations cannot be expected to suddenly adopt new tech overnight.

Quote:

Why were over fifty years of electricity not enough to provide power supply for or lay gas on every house?

It is incredibly expensive. Only the very rich appear to possess it so one must assume that either its production is very costly or its distribution was strictly limited by the class system.

Quote:

Why are there no overhead cables either?

Simple, they don't use them. Their power transfer seems to be by some sort of aetheric(SP?) means, the only time cables are used is by the Mechanists to power their turrets which drain a ton of power as stated in Soulforge.

Quote:

The point of ridiculousness is not somewhere in the distance, it's already there. No one likes the lack of technology in TDS but I think – except for the blue flashes in St Edgar's and the museum – it managed not to stand out in a negative way.

I disagree. I don't find the tech ridiculous at all and the lack of tech in DS stood out in a horribly negative way.

Quote:

Aesthetics are a different thing of course but too little reason throws you out of immersion. In my case it starts with wrong archery techniques.

Fair enough.

Beleg Cúthalion on 21/6/2009 at 21:34

Electricity expensive? Again, fifty years. I could argue that torches are too big a risk when many people live close in small old tenements. But people are needed for factories, even if we exclude the fact that they shouldn't die anyway et cetera... but that's not the point. :p My point was to say that the illogicalness doesn't start with submarines but with light switches. And that at least once in a year people should consider the "real" consequences if Thief happened to be real just for a second.

Quote Posted by jtr7

Beleg is unable to recognize his own ridiculousness.

But I await his FM! Where he has more control over much that annoys him. :thumb:

Now you're one of the nasty sort. In fact, in my incredibly open-hearted attitude and plurality I've voluntarily included (http://darkfate.ru/?thumbs=files/fan-missions/Thief3/Hermes/screenshots/screen01) power collectors into my FM in spe and wasted one afternoon for those particles. :sly: Anyway, I'm able to enjoy things even when they make me complain. I could never write that cried tears for not liking a game or that I came to spurn it.

PS: And I'd never accuse jtr7 of disliking anything but canon-based speculation just because his dedication might give the impression. ;) (don't like that smiley, looks so patronizing)