Stitch on 9/5/2012 at 20:17
hahaha what the FUCK
don't any of you screen-starers actually talk to the opposite sex in real life
ANYWAY
I don't really get the whole Facebook vs. TTLG discussion that is currently taking a steamy shit on this thread, as the two occupy very different roles of communication; Facebook is a network of real-life connections sharing information from their lives, while TTLG is a forum for discussion. Facebook is where I go to show my vacation pictures with those who might care, whereas TTLG is were I go--or, at least, went--to engage in a debate about the new Hobbit movie.
I can sort of see why Kolya is getting a little chapped here, as it seems like everyone is moaning about TTLG's demise and then posting fun shit in this hot new Facebook group, instead of funneling this activity back into TTLG where it would inject fresh life.
But here's the thing with this new Facebook group: while we're all currently drunk off the ability to peer behind the curtain of internet handles at the real lives beneath, the sugar rush will wear off at some point and we'll discover that Facebook actually is a pretty shitty medium for anything resembling discussion, and then we'll all come flooding back to TTLG.
Or not, maybe. The reason I post less and less these days is complicated, but part of it boils down to the fact that there just isn't enough activity these days to maintain the minimum level of energy needed to invite participation. I'm not sure if this place got so in-jokey and caustic that it drove away the good-natured contributors that propped this place up--especially as the in-jokes and causticity were part of what gave this place its charm--but the times have changed and the landscape now resembles a once-great center of civilization, the remaining few stragglers carrying on amidst the splendid ruins under a tired, dying sun.
Oddly enough, though, it is the Facebook group that gives me hope for TTLG, as it has revealed that people are still around and still excited to communicate with each other.
And what better place to indulge that than here?
Kolya on 10/5/2012 at 14:37
Since (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138919&p=2124198&viewfull=1#post2124198) dema dragged out some old visitor's message of mine and tried to analyse it in a not uninteresting but rather free way (ahem), I'll say this: I'm not drunk on the old times, dema. Instead I always hoped this place would evolve. And part of me still does.
People say they've grown up and out of TTLG, like GBM. And I can understand that, because TTLG didn't grow up with them. For example many people from here became game creators, yet we never had a board about game creation. People from here became musicians, photographers, artists. We got a Bioshock board and General Gaming. There used to be a TTLG musicians page but notably it wasn't on TTLG and it is long gone now.
It's like you tried to conserve your former teenage gamer selves here until you got bored with them. A serious discussion board may have been a start. Commchat wasn't it obviously.
But there would have been many ways to evolve, not just by adding new forums (and merging some old ones), but also by developing the software we sit on. Another type of people that TTLG produced like no other forum were programmers. If you would have let them or led them on, we might have a site by now that could hold up better against the likes of facebook or even outrun it in terms of being more fitting to this type of community and being non commercial. But any suggested changes and ideas were were turned down
invariably, later no answers were given any more at all.
Last not least a conscious effort could have been made to create a welcoming atmosphere for newbies, from better/existent moderation to less groupthink in the community. But instead the often repeated argument was: If they don't get us/love us, we're better off without them. Are you now?
Any change and in fact anything new was always attacked on TTLG in the most aggressive ways. And now you say you're bored with this old place. Go figure.
And even now you want TTLG to stay the same. Splendid ruins indeed and mummified memories.
I'm not the type who's digging up old threads for amusement. I'm not nostalgic.
I guess you will say it's useless to bring up missed chances now. But that is, as Muzman pointed out, a post hoc rationalisation of past mistakes and your current wish to leave.
I wouldn't even mind this ratio, if the result wasn't that TTLG eventually had to die and furthermore will have to STAY DEAD to keep up your version of the story. Although I understand the psychological reflex, it's hard to ignore the egoism that shines through it.
Now if you're going to ban me for participating in this thread MsLedd, go ahead. But try to get my name right. I'd hate it to get banned and not notice it.
Stitch on 10/5/2012 at 16:09
Quote Posted by Kolya
Last not least a conscious effort could have been made to create a welcoming atmosphere for newbies, from better/existent moderation to less groupthink in the community. But instead the often repeated argument was: If they don't get us/love us, we're better off without them. Are you now?
Maybe, maybe not. It's easy now that this place is a ghost town to point the finger of blame squarely at the caustic attitude that reigned in the past, but who knows? At its best I think Comm Chat had an atmosphere of friends hanging out, friends who could both give and take a punch, and this drew people in (even as it pushed some away). A similar attitude certainly thrives elsewhere on the internet, so why was it our supposed death knell? And why didn't the bottoming out of Comm Chat happen until well after the more volatile members of this forum simmered down?
Having said that, I don't think you're necessarily
wrong, I just think it's a complicated issue. I certainly can't deny that some people in this forum participate in a way that isn't exactly conducive to fostering discussion.
In the end, you cut to the heart of why we are where we are: the old guard is tired and there's no new blood to inject new life. I'd argue that this is due mostly to TTLG not having a core purpose of existence that still resonates in 2012, but a more inviting atmosphere certainly couldn't hurt.
Thirith on 10/5/2012 at 16:11
For the record: thanks, Kolya, for posting what you did. Regardless of whether I agree with you or not (and I do to a large extent, but feel less personally involved in TTLG than you seem to), it's vastly preferable to your earlier post, which did come across as frothing at the mouth, and therefore made it difficult to engage with it.
demagogue on 10/5/2012 at 16:36
Quote Posted by Kolya
Since dema dragged out some old visitor's message of mine and tried to analyse it in a not uninteresting but rather free way (ahem), I'll say this: I'm not drunk on the old times, dema. Instead I always hoped this place would evolve. And part of me still does.
For the record, that post was largely just my own thoughts anyway, and that message was mostly just a useful springboard to get to it. I really do think the spirit of a place matters, and it's not an easy thing to just mechanically reproduce. I'm more than happy to let you speak for yourself on the issue, as you just did very nicely I thought.
Goldmoon Dawn on 10/5/2012 at 22:17
I only come to TTLG for two reasons all these years. First, to solemnly defend The Dark Project. Second, to laugh! I have had many laughs over the years thanks to all you guys and gals, and since its one of my two main purposes for visiting these here parts I figured I would post some links to things that made me laugh. If GBM said he's leaving or something, that is how I would react. Not interested in going so in depth about the rest of that stuff, as the future is so wide open. Ide rather enjoy today and wait for tomorrow. Considering the variety of input this thread has already endured, I feel that I am totally within my rights to share another funny thread. The Busey gif made me (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129252&page=1) laugh real good.
jtr7 on 10/5/2012 at 22:45
Kolya, that last post was one of your best. Thanks.
june gloom on 11/5/2012 at 00:07
Kolya finally gets around to having a point, and it's a valid one. It's true what he says about how we've been hostile to new things -- there's a reason we have a bit of a reputation thanks to Kieron Gillen. And that attitude has been pervasive in everything that goes on here -- from a distrust of new members (and a distrust of members with registration dates newer than 2003) to a distrust of new games. We've more or less let this place stay the same as it always was, and I think the divide between Thiefgen and the rest of the forum did some harm too. While Thiefgen is mostly to blame for that divide, the rest of us certainly didn't help matters much by making fun of them. (Not that I feel bad for doing it, though!)
TTLG's been my internet home for years now. Maybe I don't have as long a record as some of you, and maybe my acerbic attitude is a turnoff for some, but let it never be said that I don't give a shit about TTLG. I'm having trouble imagining going anywhere else -- I'm not a forum person, and TTLG has long been my one exception. But I think the spirit of this place is not really here anymore -- too many long-timers bailing. That they're all coming back to us on Facebook just goes to show, maybe TTLG as a forum isn't the place for them anymore. And maybe it's not going to be the place for we who remain much longer either.
Dia on 11/5/2012 at 01:32
Jaysus loves me!!! You guys have gone absolutely maudlin and morbid here! I agree with GMD; be here now. TTLG isn't dead yet, ffs. Still a lot going on in the forums, and besides, GBM didn't say he was quitting this place for good, only that he was turning in his badge. Okay, so the 'old guard' is leaving, seemingly slowly but surely. So let's give ourselves a little bit of time to sort ourselves out and there will be those here who will willingly take up the reins. (Just don't look at me because I like poking people with sharp objects far too much.) We've still got a substantial number of members who do give a damn about this place and I agree with whoever made the point about letting TTLG evolve; I think part of that evolution is that it'll never be the way it was in 'the good ole days'. It can't possibly remain the same but has to change, and I think that's exactly what's been happening for awhile now. Doesn't mean we have to start digging a grave yet. The 'old spirit' of TTLG may be on its way out, which is only logical since the older members are not-so-much-leaving-but-fading-away and they're the ones who created that old spirit in the first place. But there's still spirit here - just different - even if it's not what some of the older members would like it to be. All things must change and TTLG's no exception. (God, you don't know how much I hated to post that platitude, but there it is.)
I know I probably totally mucked up in trying to convey my thoughts here, but I absolutely refuse to give up on this place. I'm open for change - even if takes awhile.
Scots Taffer on 11/5/2012 at 04:59
Yeah, Kolya's point about the forums not evolving with the users is a fairly pertinent one I feel and is not so indirectly linked to the prospective revitalisation of the userbase by making TTLG.com a broader reaching portal for current members as well as appealing to new members.
Changing the hub was raised multiple times in the past few years, with people putting their hand up to be involved, and was under consideration from the likes of GBM and David and Digi, but it went nowhere. I'm not sure why, but I presume that some sort of ownership rests with Digi to agree on the direction of the site and he's never gotten around to making that decision. Or if he has, it's been behind closed doors and nothing has come of it. In either case, the net effect is the same - it's rudderless and drifting and doomed to failure.
Beyond that, the usual and utterly predictable griping about elitism of CommChat destroying the entirety of TTLG is part bullshit, part hurt feelings and part true. In any community a unspoken culture evolves and friendships/cliques emerge, to deny this is to pretend human nature can conveniently depart for online interactions. Therefore this isn't a problem unless it is allowed to run rampant, which I would suggest hasn't been a problem outside of CommChat (or maybe GenGaming) since the caustic days of old in 08/09. And to suggest that CommChat is responsible for the decline of any of the other subforums is just plain ole bullshit. Half of the people who could be typified as a "problem" in Kolya's eyes wouldn't ever step foot outside of CommChat.
Personally, I wouldn't claim to see eye to eye with everyone on the forums, nor care to interact with all of them in particular, but a large proportion of people on TTLG fall into two camps - people who I'm happy to converse with about a range of subjects from games to curret affairs and people who I'd love to go for a drink with.
In all of these things, you will find your mileage may vary... I will never be a part of gamer-centric TTLGer groups because I lack the interest and equally a gamer may not feel part of a group of counter-culture/ironic/pop-culture saturated people who have no time for gaming. Again, this is just population demographics and human nature in action, and the idea that if the forum had adapted to respond to the changing nature of its userbase is a highly valid one but that ship has sailed (and sunk, I would say).
Anyway, not sure there's much more to be said. TTLG has definitely dropped from my first habitual click on the internet and the day I realised that I was a little bit sad, but the fact is that it's not what it was and I don't know if I, or anyone of the general population, has the ability to change that.
For this place to survive, it needs a leader and it doesn't have one.
