Jashin on 1/9/2008 at 17:54

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It's the same thing. It's different to you cus your goal is not to beat the best. So anything the best can do better, I gotta learn.

Call it mastery curve if you want, it's all learning to me.

BlackCapedManX on 2/9/2008 at 07:13

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The problem with the idea of a multiplayer learning curve is that it would dissuade players. Hence mostly multiplayer games (I'm making a kind of broad assumption by insisting that most multiplayer games are FPS, just because of how easy it is to take whatever theme FPS game you have and add deathmatch) have a pretty low learning curve, with a few advanced tricks, but not much more than that. Acquiring twitch reflexes isn't part of a learning curve, because it isn't something you learn how to do, it's something you "practice" how to do, something that comes through playing, rather than understanding.

Here's a good example of a multiplayer/singleplayer game with a ridiculous learning curve: Armoured Core 4 (most AC games in fact, but AC4 made everything a little more absurd and made MP a lot more accessible.) You see a lot of beginner players walking! in this game, which , in AC, you never, ever, EVER do, if you have plans on like, you know, living. The learning curve is so steep because unlike your standard fps, you can just bunny hop around madly, you have to learn how to make builds, you have to learn all 50-odd or whatever different attributes make up your design, and figure out which of the several hundred parts will fit the role best. You have to figure what weapons fit your style, what range they work at, and how to maintain that range, then how to balance how defensible your build is against all that. You have to glean through stats to figure out which individual weapons of each type will work better than others (by no means are all guns/missiles/blades/lasers/etc made equal), then make sure you have the energy and weight capacity to equip all that.

Then, once you've figured out how to build something passable, an encylopedic challenge of it's own, you have to figure out how to fly it. This includes figuring out how much you can quick dodge, if jumping/flying is going to work, or if you should stick on the ground, how much you can push your generator vs how quickly it recharges, how often you can fire energy weapons at whatever rate of quick boosting (god forbid you then go and play the older games where the native tactic was jump boosting, and you could gen bust, and overheat on top of that), and then solidify all of that into a cohesive strategy that would work against someone using it all against you.

Now you could learn all of this against the computer, and if you've never played AC before, that's totally a must, but when you play against other people, it becomes a totally different story, and a lot of the cheap tactics that work against the AI, people won't fall for. So you have to re-learn a bunch until you know what works against player tactics, but all of that is stuff you learn (basically what people are capable of and are inherently vulnerable to is actually very different than what the computer is capable of and inherently vulnerable to.)

But once you KNOW all of that, you've basically beat the learning curve. If you're still getting your ass kicked, it's not because of the learning curve, it's because you can't react fast enough, or your choke up and burn your generator out, or you don't remember to watch your reloads, and the more you play, the easier it is for all that to come naturally, but that isn't learning. Of course, then, once you're skills are reasonable, then you go back and learn to tweak to minute perfection, and that's the whole top tier of the learning curve.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the AC series has a stupid learning curve, and then people make the game harder, but part of that is because you have to learn what works against people, and most of it is because people are just better than the AI, so you have to get better to compensate, but there's not a lot you can learn about reflexes that's going to do you much good. You've just gotta do it.

William Dojinn on 2/9/2008 at 20:35

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*eyeroll*

tribes 2 complex? Yes its got a couple added layers like deployables and the jetpack, but its not really all that hard. This comming from the guy that gets shredded in practically every one on one firefight he's in. I've always liked T2 for the fact there's a variety of jobs since, well, I tend toget killed alot, hence I tended to be the guy in katabatic getting morter spammed while fixing stuff because nobody was providing cover fire.

BEAR on 8/9/2008 at 02:05

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From your post I would imagine you are a noob by tribes standards. That still puts you above 90% of gamers in total just for having played tribes, but you would be at the bottom of the totem otherwise. This thread isn't about complexity as much as a learning curve, which would be complexity of gameplay. Does that mean a person in a couple sessions couldnt understand the basic tools at ones disposal? Of course not, it wouldn't take long at all especially if you read the manual that comes with the game. Would a noob be able to see all the myriad of uses for said equipment besides the obvious? No, not at all. I'm still learning to this day different ways to use stuff.

Case in point: Clearly deploaybles are useful for their basic functions, but how about using waypoints in ramps up into a gen room sticking out just enough to stop a heavy from being able to ski right up it, therfor being easier to stop? How about placing pulse sensors around the flag to catch and slow down incomming FCs?

Nobody "provides covering fire", that is a useless arrangement of terms that shows an utter lack of comprehension in terms of base maintenance. If you are talking about Rebels Katabatic V2 noob-shit then perhaps such tactics fly, but nobody "provides covering fire" for people repairing things.

This is why tribes 2 has such a huge learning curve, the farther you go the more you realize how much you don't know. I've played for years (some competitive but not a lot, just enough to be able to follow what goes on), and I never reached the "elite" status - whether to lack of time devoted or just the fact that you can get so good at it that not everyone can attain it.

Tribes 2 has a learning curve of such magnitude that there is, for a lot of people, literally no reason to start playing as the game would be totally dead before you had the chance to get good at it at all. You almost have to start with everyone else unless you are a really quick learner. With the myriad of packs and weapons, the gameplay styles are nearly endless. I've known utter BASTARDS who played only with med armor with a sensor jammer pack on offense when I wouldn't be able to do it at all.

To counter that tribes is complex with a huge learning curve with such things as "providing cover fire" is so retarded its laughable. That kind of narrow minded 2d CS gameplay is a very small part of tribes 2 (mostly relevant in arena, which brings an entire new level of play to tribes). I guess long story short don't listen to this guy, he obviously played a few V2 katabatic pub's and somehow thinks he deserves to comment (when he doesn't).

Edit: I also love how you dismiss the jetpack as just an "added layer of comlexity" like its just a minor thing. The jetpack with skiiing combine to make movement the hardest of any game I've ever played. I've gotten gamer friends who are very intelligent and skilled that literally could spend hours without being able to hit a single person (that wasnt on their team). The FPZ system is just so entirely different its like learning a language or a musical instrument: the hardware just isnt there initially. Any FPS where you run around on the ground and shoot people I could pick up and within a couple hours be doing decently (I'm not claiming to be able to dominate, thats what the really good tribes players will do). Nobody can do that with tribes. In fact, if you attempted to pick the game up solo without skilled people to play with, it would take years (if it ever happened) to actually develop a lot of skill and discover a lot of the nuance in the game. Take for example Rebels Katabatic: Their community is so inbred with unskilled noobs that they have very little hope of getting much better (hence the fun that good players have when rampaging their pubs so hard they have to be banned). Its not their fault per se (well it is for not playing Classic), its just they have very little skilled people to learn from. In summary you don't understand the game well enough to realize how little you understand the game.

demagogue on 8/9/2008 at 22:21

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Modern games are vetted by a whole theory/dogma of game-design where ease of learning and intuitive interface are near the top of the list, not to mention focus-groups.

Game design from C64 days the were the unvarnished brain-children of their designers trying to perfect some idea that inspired them. Sometimes I'm nostalgic for that, when I play indie games or replay old games. It's just a different way of thinking about what a game should be trying to do ... perfect some idea vs. watch the player's back.