The Mystic Estate Aug. 13/04

GORT on 5/10/2004 at 18:13

Hmmm, sounds like the contains link is missing between the AI and the purse. Darn it! :tsktsk: I'll fix that in the three mission set.

ShadowWolf421 on 6/10/2004 at 09:52

Good morning all,

I've only half a day to finish this mission before i have to pack up my computer.

I'm at the part with the red dressed lady with a sword (I assume that is Christine III)

problem is i cant seem to beat her, I know im supposed to use

[SPOILER]water arrows and holy water[/SPOILER]
but she always manages to blast me about 4 of em into it
even if i flashbomb her.

also I've noticed [SPOILER]that its taking a LOT of holy water arrows to destroy her, i dont think I have enough for her and Frederick, is there a cache of water arrows I'm missing? (already got the few in the armoury[/SPOILER]

oneof4 on 6/10/2004 at 11:47

Good Morning ShadowWolf421, here's how I did it:[SPOILER]Get behind her, (if you time it right, she won't see you), conk her on the head with your sword, then continue slashing her while staying behind her. I think it takes around three or four slashes after the initial strike to take her out. Oh, and to save you some more frustration, once you kill her, you cannot get the actual sword that she is carrying, there is a secret switch built into one of the statues that opens another secret door (back at the beginning, where the placque is that you read about choosing direction to take), that is where the sword is.[/SPOILER]

Good Luck!!!

ShadowWolf421 on 6/10/2004 at 12:17

thanks oneof4, that did the trick :thumb:

I have one final inquisition before I complete this FM:

there are 4 sets of doors i cannot open, lockpick nor cog nor key nor [SPOILER]magical sword[/SPOILER] will not open

[SPOILER]two sets of double doors on the third floor with a lockbox between them[/SPOILER]

[SPOILER]one downstairs to the right of where you go outside to and finish the mission[/SPOILER]

[SPOILER]a set of wooden double doors downstairs, there's a trap in front of it which drops down to a hoarde of zombies[/SPOILER]

oneof4 on 6/10/2004 at 12:59

Hello again ShadowWolf421, yeah it's kinda frustrating isn't it?

None of those doors will open. Gort has stated that the two double doors on the third floor with the lock box will be accessable in his three mission pack in the future, but for now no.

These frobbable, yet unopenable doors are probably the single most frequent complaint about this mission. Hopefully, in future missions, Gort will make unopenable doors unfrobbable as well. :thumb:

ShadowWolf421 on 6/10/2004 at 13:42

thanks again oneof4 :)

GORT, this mission was amazing! :thumb: :)

you dont know how many times you got me with just the [spoiler]trap in the library[/spoiler] :o

GORT on 6/10/2004 at 15:38

Just remember, there are "10" secrets. Good luck! :thumb:

ZylonBane on 6/10/2004 at 16:15

This FM is a bit of a conundrum. On the one hand, it has well-done, rock-solid architecture and an impressive array of technical tricks. But on the other hand, it's packed with newbie mistakes, like--

Instant-kill death traps with no warnings or hints. You can practically hear the designer cackling, "LOLOL! YUO R DEAD!" when these kick in. Worse, they're screamingly illogical. Why would flipping an unmarked lever cause a massive explosion? Why would there be a drop floor in the middle of the library?
Instant-screw-the-player traps with no warnings or hints. Like turning a coat hook that summons a pack of bugbeasts. Or pressing an unlabeled button which triggers the alarm system. "Oops", indeed.
Spawning. Call me crazy, but standing there watching a stack of guards appear out of thin air doesn't do much for my immersion level.
Illogical puzzles with no hints (A lever deep in the basement opens the back gate? Invisible buttons? Yeesh).
Buttons with the frob distance set too short. How many people didn't realize you could disable the alarm system because the necessary buttons couldn't even be frobbed unless you leaned forward into them?
Excessive individual loot items. Clicking 30 times to pick up 30 coins is not 30 times as fun as clicking two or three times to pick up some coin stacks (yes, I'm talking about the gambling room).
Frobbable but unopenable doors.
Ludicrous overuse of tile.
Hypersensitive AIs.
Blackjacked AIs that are stuck standing up if you reload a saved game.
Much larger WAV files than necessary.

If I had to pick one word to describe this mission, it would be CHEESE. It's dripping with it. I usually take Thief missions on fairly, purposefully avoiding all the known quirks and exploits. But once it became apparent that this mission had no intent of playing fairly with me (pretty much from the moment you start), I abandoned any notion of playing fairly with it. For the first time in my life, I used the lean-forward blackjack... and I used it a lot. I ran little circles around alerted guards in the dark to blackjack them. I blackjacked through doors. I hacked and slashed. I rarely bothered with sneaking. I quicksaved constantly. I tossed bodies off ledges. I broke every window. In the end, I didn't want to beat the mission so much as I wanted to desecrate it.

A shame really, since there's the shell of something great here. The designer just needs to get it through his head that a well-designed mission must be theoretically completable by someone who's never played the mission before. Unwarned, undetectable traps (lethal or otherwise) are a big, bold-faced, neon-lit NO-NO.

GORT on 6/10/2004 at 19:17

Well, thanks for your opinion ZylonBane. I guess I should of said that this mission is only for experienced players :tsktsk: . Oh well, at least I got a few people that liked it.

NOTE TO EVERYBODY THAT PLAYS MY FMs: If you want to play my FMs, play to original missions first. That way you'll get a good feel for the game.

ZylonBane on 6/10/2004 at 19:53

Quote Posted by GORT

I guess I should of said that this mission is only for experienced players

Experience has nothing to do with it. Sucker-punching the player with insta-kill traps is never good design.

Look at the OMs-- there were a few lethal traps scattered around, but they were always in logical locations, and the game always went to great pains to warn the player about them. That's the critical difference. Always give the player sufficient information that when he dies, he feels like it's his fault, not the level designer's.

And if you're going to spawn in reinforcements, for the love of god don't do it where the player can just stand there and watch it happen.