zombe on 17/3/2014 at 13:45
My Russian is quite crap too (although i have learned it ~9y as part of russification policy by Russia at the time ... but it is easy to forget when there is absolutely no use for the language for decades). However, a more proficient member showed up and (besides being pointed out that it is in multiple languages - something i somehow managed to miss while glancing over it x_x, da f*, seriously): while it is not worded as clearly as one would expect (first of: is a common voter expected to know the details of the 1992 thing?) - we would interpret it as at least an approximation of status quo. Specifically the restoration of Crimea as an autonomous part of Ukraine (edit: ie, Crimea was an autonomous part of Ukraine before shit hit the fan - returning to that i would say is "restoration" of that state, while not explicitly worded as such).
This for me sounds like clearly implying the second version of the treaty. Perhaps there are some relevant intricacies of it that do make a significant difference somewhere - but i clearly don't know shit about that kind of details.
While the referendum is complete bollocks, at least the options seem to include "return to status quo" and are sensible on that level at least. ... or our grasp of Russian is worse than we realized.
zombe on 17/3/2014 at 13:55
Quote Posted by nemyax
That's the first relevant item that Google turned up. The case in point was that the Crimean parliament did sign this sort of paper. The rest of the article doesn't matter.
Daily Mail is never relevant and should be ignored from search results - just a suggestion ;).
nickie on 17/3/2014 at 14:06
Quote Posted by zombe
Daily Mail is never relevant and should be ignored from search results - just a suggestion ;).
QFT - closely followed by the Daily Express.
nemyax on 17/3/2014 at 14:18
Quote Posted by zombe
Daily Mail is never relevant and should be ignored from search results
That's as may be. (Never read a single article from it before.) I think it was AFP that reported it in Western press.
Here's the Wikipedia entry on the wishful declaration: (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_of_Crimea)
Predictably, the current Kiev non-government promptly condemned it (and went so far as to disband the Crimean parliament—again, on paper), and Russia spun it the opposite way.
bukary on 17/3/2014 at 14:31
I will never understand people like Gryzeimus. Perhaps they should live in Russia or some occupied country for some time to see the difference between "bad" West (EU) and "bad" East.
And it's because of such people really bad individuals (and not this EU-monster) can do what they do and the world just stares. They, like Raskolnikov, are able to "rationalize" every disgraceful deed in the name of some twisted utilitarianism ("There are many things wrong with Russia. But would life be worse than what it is in the Ukraine ? What would you chose?").
There's no point in this discussion. But this quote just shows (one more time) how naive Gryzeimus is:
Quote:
"Russia is now willing to take part in an international contact-group. The contact-group is an initiative of western countries to find a solution for the conflict. Presumably Russia will bring demands that are unacceptable for the western countries".
WTF ? Presumably ? What does that mean ? The contact-group hasn't started yet. No proposals have been made. And Russia has made no demands yet. But our news already knows now that Russia is gonna attach unacceptable demands ? What kind of "unbiased news reporting" is that ?
Well, the demands leaked yesterday... Guess what Russians want? I will not deprive you of this great pleasure of finding out that the newspaper you're criticizing has more common sense than you. Small quote to tease your appetite (from Carl Bildt's tweet):
Quote:
Latest Russia proposal on Ukraine smells somewhat like dream of repetition of February 1945 deals on fate of Poland.
Wasn't I talking about Yalta few posts ago? Hmmm.... I am so curious how you will "rationalize"
that. Putin's Russia is soooo incredibly cynical, arrogant and hypocritical.
Fortunately, there's also other Russia: 50 thousand people were protesting against the invasion on Crimea yesterday in Moscow.
Inline Image:
http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/f6/8e/ee/z15634166Q,Wedlug-radia-Echo-Moskwy--przez-stolice-Rosji-prze.jpg Come on, wake up! :p
BTW, I hope you still believe that the whole referendum was not faked and that you have no idea of what infamous Russian technique of "dead souls" during elections/referendums is. (123% attendance in Sevastopol is remarkable.) That would only proove my point.
*DISCLAIMER: I might be wrong about EVERYTHING, because among the sources of my informations are European media, and we all know how trecherous, false, full of rotten propaganda and cenzorship they are, right?!
nemyax on 17/3/2014 at 14:51
Quote Posted by bukary
Well, the demands leaked yesterday... Guess what Russians want?
50 million pounds sterling, the continent of Australia and an internationally recognized holiday known as "Praise be to H.A.R.M. Day"
(C) NOLF
Seriously though, Russia has only wanted Crimea for itself out of all this. That's not going to change, and lack of acceptance from the US and EU is not going to change either. Therefore, the Dutch media may be on to something.
bukary on 17/3/2014 at 15:06
Quote Posted by nemyax
Seriously though, Russia has only wanted Crimea for itself out of all this.
Well, not
only. Check the Russian demands. :p
Russians invaded Ukrainians, took part of their land, and now they
demand something from Ukraine, Europe and the rest of the world! :laff:
nemyax on 17/3/2014 at 15:12
Quote Posted by bukary
Check the Russian demands.
Where? It had better be a media outlet (or two), not a sensationalist blog.
bukary on 17/3/2014 at 15:20
Quote Posted by nemyax
Where? It had better be a media outlet (or two), not a sensationalist blog.
My source is the biggest Polish newspaper (not some tabloid). There's also a full document in Russian on the net. Are you sure there's no information in your native language?
If not, let me just tell you that Russians want another Yalta. Only this time Poland should be replaced with Ukraine. Russians demand changes in Ukrainian constitution, referendum in the whole country, and Russian language as national language in Ukraine. Nice, heh? And the rest of the world should guarantee that this demands are fulfilled! Jawohl, Mr. Putin!
Ukraine has just called their ambassador back from Russia.
demagogue on 17/3/2014 at 15:48
One of my old professors did a good (
http://simonchesterman.com/blog/2014/03/15/crimea/) write up summarizing the legal angles on this, and generally being level-headed about what it all means IMO. International law actually doesn't prohibit this like some people are claiming, but that doesn't mean it will be effective either. And on the costs in the long run:
Quote:
Russia has just spent US$51 billion on the Sochi Olympics — more than the combined cost of every Winter Olympics since 1924 — in order to showcase its revival as a modern state. Despite some hiccups in execution and criticism of its homophobic laws, that makeover had been partially successful. All the goodwill so purchased has now evaporated. One of the few world leaders to speak out in support of Putin was Syria’s Bashar al-Assad. When only the butcher of Damascus is on your side, you have to wonder where you went wrong.
Internationally, Russia’s status as a fixture at the G-8 group of leading economies is now in serious jeopardy.
But probably more important is the build-up of domestic pressure within Russia. Though comparisons with the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis are overblown — no nuclear weapons are in play — the domestic consequences of that crisis were that Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev was overthrown by members of his own Politburo for “hare-brained scheming”. There are some signs that Putin’s erratic leadership may at last be undermining his own support base.
One hundred and sixty years ago, Russia lost a war over the Crimean peninsula to a European alliance. President Putin may win the present battle. But he could lose the wider war. Regardless of how the people in Crimea vote tomorrow, Russia’s prestige and his own place in history will be diminished.
