Gryzemuis on 17/3/2014 at 16:00
Bukary,
I am not supporting Russia.
I agree that I rather live in the bad west than in the bad east.
I understand that the Polish people (and other countries around Russia) get nervous.
I'm not advocating that Russia should get any control over Ukraine.
But for me, the fact remains that:
The majority of people in the Krim want to be part of the Russian Federation, and also they don't want anything to do with Kiev. Even if the referendum was rigged, even if the numbers are bigger than they are in reality, I don't believe that the majority of the people in the Krim wanted to stay with the Ukraine. That's democracy. Sucks for some people, but democracy always sucks for some people.
Do you think the much praised free elections in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Egypt were better ? Do you think if the Krim would stay Ukrainian, that Kiev would have left the Krim untouched ? I don't know. Right after Yanukovych left Kiev, there were protestors declaring "one people, one nation, one language, one church !". Now I don't know how serious that was. But there were people in the Ukraine (and even Ukraine government maybe) that wanted to ban the Russian language in the Ukraine. With such aggression against Russians in the Ukraine, what do you expect ? Russia bites back.
I don't agree with Russia. I don't care what the Krim belongs too. But what I see is a change without any people getting killed. That in itself is remarkable. Check how the US wants to (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War) bring peace and change to the world. Usually by killing thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people.
This is not Yalta. This is not the 2nd world war. The US and Europe played a dumb game. As usual. And this time Russia outplayed them. Sucks for the 5% or 25% of the people in the Krim who would have liked to stay in the Ukraine. But things could have been a lot worse.
bukary on 17/3/2014 at 16:07
Yes. Russia has lost all the credibility. Putin showed his middle finger to all his allies in Europe. It looks like the ones who were defending him mostly (like Germans with their Ostpolitik) are the ones who should be embarassed and regarded naive now.
Unfortunately, some European countries still do not want to mess with Russia and do not care much about Ukraine partition. Here's how it looked till now:
Hawks:
Poland, UK, Sweden, Baltic states
Undecided:
Germany, France
Doves:
Spain, Italy, Netherlands
I am not sure about other countries.
nickie on 17/3/2014 at 16:43
(
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26610107) European media's position: "European press warns of consequences of Crimea vote". Apparently British media doesn't have a position or perhaps we're not European.
nemyax on 17/3/2014 at 17:44
Quote Posted by nickie
Apparently British media doesn't have a position
If only those pesky Russian oligarchs weren't so fond of spending their fortunes in London!
bukary on 18/3/2014 at 12:14
I've just listened to one of the most important of Putin's speeches.
I must admit that it was great (in a twisted way) and quite clear... Now that he has Crimea, Putin does not want the eastern part of Ukraine. He wants it all and, as he said, he will get it one way or another. He wants the Russian empire to rise again.
It was also "funny" to listen how he mocks USA, its pitiful sanctions, politics and its army with sarcastic smile every few sentences. I am not sure how Obama is regarded as a president in his country (perhaps his internal politics is admirable), but it seems that most of the world (nor only Russians) regard him a naive wuss.
Joe Biden is in Poland right now, so I had my news TV screen splitted in half: I saw Putin's and Biden's smile at the same time. The latter was fake, helpless television smile, while the former - it was Judge Dredd's croak: "I am the LAWWW!".
demagogue on 18/3/2014 at 13:07
I found (
www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/opinion/bittner-is-crimea-the-next-yugoslavia.html) this article sobering. It was noticing the similarities between this situation and the situation leading up to the violent break up of Yugoslavia. There's a cocktail of different groups pitted against each other, everybody is forced to take sides, extreme groups are flooding into the region & rallying, and even if both sides want peace, violence may be unavoidable. Everything up until now may be small potato compared to the viciousness of a civil war if one breaks out. It's just disturbing to read different sources on both sides saying it's closer than we thought.
Edit:
Quote Posted by bukary
Now that he has Crimea, Putin does not want the eastern part of Ukraine. He wants it all and, as he said, he will get it one way or another. He wants the Russian empire to rise again.
At least he's not coy about what this is all about. We all understand that if he makes a move on the Baltic states, that triggers the NATO obligations and it's WWIII, right?
bukary on 18/3/2014 at 13:18
After today's Putin speech I am almost sure there will be no Yugoslavia in Crimea. Putin has just announced that Crimea is part of Russia and he will not allow anything like that to happen. :p
And he's soooo good at making his wishes come true.
demagogue on 18/3/2014 at 13:21
That's why the first sentence of that article is the most disturbing:
Quote:
Here is a disturbing thought: What if Vladimir V. Putin no longer has power to prevent bloodshed in Ukraine, even if he wants to?
...
The rift runs through families and workplaces. Western-minded children are aghast at fathers who join pro-Russia militias. What we are witnessing in Crimea — as well as in Eastern Ukraine, where pro-Russians have started calling for their own referendums — is nothing less than the emergence of two nations within one state.
...
But [Mr. Amzayev] shares Bratislav's anxiety: that the mere impression that Muslims are under attack may be enough to draw hotheads to Crimea. “The danger is there. If it happens, not even Putin will be able to control the situation.”
Chetniks. Cossacks. Fascists. Zombies. Jihadis. Was this part of Mr. Putin's plan to enlarge his empire?
With such a cast of characters, the Kremlin's would-be strongman resembles Goethe's foolhardy sorcerer's apprentice. Like the apprentice, Mr. Putin has mistaken himself for a sorcerer. But unlike the apprentice, whose master eventually intervenes, Mr. Putin has no one to rein in the deteriorating situation he has created in Crimea.
bukary on 18/3/2014 at 13:28
Well, the reporter at the site is always the best source of information... On the other hand, I do not think that Putin would be performing such a show in front of the whole world today if he was not absolutely sure of what his army, spies and puppet government there are capable of.
Crimea, now part of the Russian empire, might be left in peace. But Ukraine... Putin's speech was very worrisome, because he insisted that Ukrainians will want to be part of Russsia by themselves (read: in the future we'll bring internal hell to you country and you will pray for our army to come to the rescue).
Well, there's a winter coming for all Ukrainians. :(
BTW, did you notice that Putin indirectly condemned Yanukovitz in his speech? It might be that the days of this little Saddam are numbered.
SubJeff on 18/3/2014 at 13:41
I don't get why he doesn't just say - we want the oil and the gas and the military bases and we're not prepared to give up all that. It's what everyone knows, what everyone is thinking. The time for bs is over.
