SD on 19/3/2014 at 02:18
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
But for me, the fact remains that:
The majority of people in the Krim want to be part of the Russian Federation, and also they don't want anything to do with Kiev. Even if the referendum was rigged, even if the numbers are bigger than they are in reality, I don't believe that the majority of the people in the Krim wanted to stay with the Ukraine. That's democracy. Sucks for some people, but democracy always sucks for some people.
Too bad the Chechens don't get to decide like the Crimeans, hey.
nemyax on 19/3/2014 at 06:19
Quote Posted by SD
Too bad the Chechens don't get to decide like the Crimeans, hey.
Would they want to, today?
Quote Posted by bukary
Just read between the lines.
Reading between the lines is a job for spin teams. You follow the Polish official line unquestioningly, but you need to be careful around any state propaganda, be it Polish, American or Russian. Not all of it is true, and a lot is conveniently glossed over.
Quote Posted by bukary
Did you miss the part about the historical origins of Russia (as a state) that are connected with southern territories (Ukraine)? Did you miss the part about erroneous separation of Ukraine and Russia? Did you miss the part about how wrong it is that USSR is no more? Did you miss the part about "the culture, civilisation and human values that unite the peoples of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus"? Do you think (in the light of recent events) that these are just sentiments, longings that have no connection to reality?
You, on the other hand, seem to have missed that he kept referring to Ukraine as sovereign.
That little account of the historic perspective is pure pandering to the Russian consciousness. It's what Russians like to hear, and it sends his domestic approval rating skyrocketing. Don't let USSR-induced phobias get the better of you =)
Anyway, here's an exercise in reading between the lines: What are Russia's strategic interests in Crimea specifically?
An answer to that requires minimal research; data gathered from state media and demotivators won't cut it. Wikipedia is good enough though.
icemann on 19/3/2014 at 13:20
Quote Posted by nemyax
Would they want to, today?
Considering how many of them got exterminated by the Russian military many years ago for attempting independence I'd be betting not.
On Crimea, it just seems just plain wrong to me that a country that killed a very large percentage of the local population and thus making it's own people the dominant nationality in the region, and then many years later declaring that the people there want to be part of their country in a large part due to that massacre.
Doesn't sound very much like democracy to me. Sure in the technical sense of the word it is, if you completely ignore the past and only look at present day, but we are all more intelligent than that I'd have thought.
To quote wikipedia on the region:
On 18 May 1944, the entire population of the Crimean Tatars were forcibly deported in the "Sürgün" (Crimean Tatar for exile) to Central Asia by Joseph Stalin's Soviet government as a form of collective punishment on the grounds that they had collaborated with the Nazi occupation forces. An estimated 46% of the deportees died from hunger and disease. On 26 June of the same year Armenian, Bulgarian and Greek population was also deported to Central Asia. By the end of summer 1944, the ethnic cleansing of Crimea was complete. In 1967, the Crimean Tatars were rehabilitated, but they were banned from legally returning to their homeland until the last days of the Soviet Union.Considering that, it's no fucking wonder that the vast majority of the Crimean population supports Russia. The vast majority of the rest of the population were all killed off for fucks sake. Ethnic cleansing at its finest.
nemyax on 19/3/2014 at 13:49
Quote Posted by icemann
it's no fucking wonder that the vast majority of the Crimean population supports Russia. The vast majority of the rest of the population were all killed off for fucks sake. Ethnic cleansing at its finest.
That is indeed a factor, but the Chechnya analogy is strained at best. The percentage of ethnic Russians in Chechnya is small, and Putin's cronies in charge of the region have been flooded with money as an "appeasement" measure. In Moscow's eyes, that's the only way to make sure they don't go back to kidnapping people for ransom and blowing shit up. In addition, Chechnya has oil, and Crimea has nothing (although there are persistent rumours of shale gas reserves). In fact, today's Chechens can flash fake FSB credentials in the middle of Moscow with pistols stuck in their belts in plain sight. And get away with it.
PigLick on 19/3/2014 at 14:19
ffs who cares can we just get a proper new STALKER game? I would sell the Ukraine twice over to get that.
nemyax on 19/3/2014 at 19:05
Quote Posted by PigLick
ffs who cares can we just get a proper new STALKER game?
Enjoy your proper new Thief game while you're waiting =)
june gloom on 19/3/2014 at 19:42
I know I've already said this elsewhere not a minute ago, but... Jesus Christ, you two.
Tony_Tarantula on 28/3/2014 at 20:52
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Depending on who you ask, he's either the Anti-Christ or a naive wuss. Very few people think he's Jesus anymore.
There's a select few that still worship him because he's black or because "He's still TRYING to fix things!"(when all the evidence indicates otherwise)
icemann on 29/3/2014 at 18:37
Though seeing recent events of Russian forces massing on the Ukraine border. Obama's response: "If you invade Ukraine, we'll slap tougher sanctions on you."
Yep that's going to really put the fear into them.
