Slasher on 23/2/2014 at 19:25
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
In the U.S. the personnel are paranoid, hostile, have no apparent interest in making sure those systems run efficiently, and the level of patronizing talking down we do is unbelievable (Illustrated cartoons with smiling pieces of baggage, signs warning you that you could injure yourself by stepping off an escalator wrong, etc).
I doubt they put those signs up to be patronizing. Some people just miss the obvious from time to time, or all the time. There are dozens of fairly easy and obvious ways to die at the place I work at, but that doesn't mean all the safety signs and protocols we have now were there from the beginning. Someone usually had to get scalded, shocked, burnt, crushed, smashed, deafened, or develop cancer before warning signs went up. "Don't take long strides between one load and the next near buss work" might seem patronizing to some people, but it's really not.
june gloom on 23/2/2014 at 22:54
It's true. We have a lot of stupid people in this country. Hence Xbox Live. Hence Youtube. Hence tumblr. Hence Nickelback. Hence Lil Wayne. Hence most of Texas. Hence Congress. Hence TTLG. :)
Slasher on 23/2/2014 at 23:48
We could put up safety signs whenever someone hits the "Submit Reply" button.
"Stop. Look. Think. Listen."
"Does this adhere to TTLG Quality Posting Standard 10.13?"
"Would ZylonBane say that?"
"Good posting is everyone's responsibility."
"Danger. Flammable hazard ahead!"
In better news, I guess Kiev is looking longingly at Brussels rather than Moscow now.
demagogue on 23/2/2014 at 23:53
While Sevastapol is still looking at Moscow. It's crosseyed. :eww:
june gloom on 23/2/2014 at 23:54
We could have warnings for like, religion or politics threads, too.
Slasher on 24/2/2014 at 00:10
Quote Posted by demagogue
While Sevastapol is still looking at Moscow. It's crosseyed. :eww:
I'm hoping the ouster of the president doesn't totally inflame the separatists, or the body might start trying to poke its own eyes out.
Nicker on 24/2/2014 at 07:24
Quote Posted by Slasher
In better news, I guess Kiev is looking longingly at Brussels rather than Moscow now.
But will Vlad the Enforcer permit it?
It must be dreadful living in a country where government controls business, rather than the other way around...
Yakoob on 24/2/2014 at 07:47
Been educumutating myself about this, in large parts thanks to this thread. Interesting debate here on both sides here.
I've studied Ethnic Conflict (aka divided communities/reconciliation) so this rings a bell, altho it's been a while since I reviewed my notes. One somewhat successful approach used in similar situations in the past (such as in North Ireland or Bosnia) was a consociational democracy that basically ensures that both sides of a divided nation get equal political power, with rotating presidents for both sides, or even outright dual presidency. Might be the best "solution" given the fairly even and extreme split of the two sides.
I don't think a separating the country into two is a good idea - aside from the burden of people relocation and reestablishing two new governments + infrastructures, it could end up driving an ever bigger wedge between the community further fueling animosity. It could lead to really tense relations between the two sides, resparking the cold war "west vs. communist" sentiments, while also paradoxically leading many to yearn for reunification for decades to come. Think similar to South/North Korea (tho maybe not as extremist).
scumble on 24/2/2014 at 12:53
Quote Posted by NuEffect
I can't believe the amount of craziness, like this, that still goes on in the world. Especially not in the 1st World because it's impossible to hide with current tech, the internet and media.
We're doomed as a race I think. I wouldn't blame aliens for coming and saying "you guys are a bunch of dicks and you don't deserve what you've got so zap zap zap we'll have it thanks".
Well, this might sound cynical, but I stopped watching the news because it seems like it will only be depressing, and what difference does it make if I know how badly humans are behaving elsewhere? What action can I take based on any of this information? Does me saying "oh that's terrible!" help anyone in the Ukraine?
I find it easier to accept conflict in the world after having accepted that humans are barely civilised chimp relatives. One also realises that humans can't be "fixed", they can only be prevented from having too much power so they don't turn into nihilistic despots. The US President is worrying enough being able to throw the largest military machine in the history of the world around. That's only the tip of the iceberg considering the influence of the military system.
You see, I could get rather miserable just going over the way the world works. In the end it's just too draining to get upset about the injustice everywhere.
Ostriig on 24/2/2014 at 14:33
Quote Posted by LoLion
I guess that the division of the country could take place… but we will see.
And that'll probably happen at the upcoming elections. I assume it'll be both for Parliament and Presidency, right? What it boils down to is that, after these events, you need a more significant majority to legitimise whatever administration comes next. If you get a 47% to 53%, for example, and those percentages happen to roughly align with the regional split we've been discussing so far, you're back to square one. Either separate, or, most likely rinse and repeat soon enough. Which is a troubling prospect.
Quote Posted by Muzman
The supreme irony to all this - to my eye, which has very little knowledge, really- is this very nationalistic and twitchy Russia of dema's friend (and plenty of others. Although it can't be universal), the Russia that needs to be "strong" in the face of Western meddling etc etc....
It definitely does look like since the more open Medvedev "era" has come to an end, Putin's gone back a ways towards the Soviet strong-arm rhetoric, but I think it also has to do with what theatre they're operating in. It may well be that the Kremlin's currently counting on the fact that it's dealing with post-Soviet states in its own backyard and that it expects and that is stands a better chance to get them in line this way, rather than try to compete with the sizeable economic carrot that the EU's dangling.
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
The significance of Ukraine is far beyond what the mainstream press has dared to even portray.
Personally, I don't see the case for widespread contagion from the Ukraine to the rest of Europe, mostly because the circumstances aren't that common. Russia might attempt to destabilize the pro-EU Moldova and Georgia in a manner mirroring what's gone on in the Ukraine, but that's about it, I think. Azerbaijan and the others aren't as much in the EU's reach as the Ukraine was, in Russia there've been some protests with shouting for the "Maidan" but Putin and his party have a much more solid position than Yanukovic did, and in the eastern part of the EU, while some of the local administrations have been dicking Bruxelles around, the respective populations are still massively pro-European.
I'm not saying that there won't be social unrest in Europe, it's been a constant since the onset of the financial crisis, but I doubt anything coming up, if it comes up, will stem from the recent events in the Ukraine.
Quote Posted by Yakoob
I've studied Ethnic Conflict (aka divided communities/reconciliation) so this rings a bell, altho it's been a while since I reviewed my notes. One somewhat successful approach used in similar situations in the past (such as in North Ireland or Bosnia) was a consociational democracy that basically ensures that both sides of a divided nation get equal political power, with rotating presidents for both sides, or even outright dual presidency. Might be the best "solution" given the fairly even and extreme split of the two sides.
I don't think a separating the country into two is a good idea - aside from the burden of people relocation and reestablishing two new governments + infrastructures, it could end up driving an ever bigger wedge between the community further fueling animosity. It could lead to really tense relations between the two sides, resparking the cold war "west vs. communist" sentiments, while also paradoxically leading many to yearn for reunification for decades to come. Think similar to South/North Korea (tho maybe not as extremist).
I'm not familiar with the particulars of the solution you're describing, but I have a hard time imagining how it might work. The Ukraine doesn't really have the option of just standing still and "taking it easy", catering to the political aspirations of one side for one term, and then the other. It's facing an imperative to integrate itself into a larger economic and political structure, either the EU or the Customs Union, and both blocks will continue trying to pressure it into signing up. The two are in direct competition to extend their influences, and the Ukraine is a pretty big piece to play for.
To clarify, I'm not necessarily advocating breaking up the country, it would be to their advantage to stay as a single state, but that requires the population to have a reasonably solid image of a "statal identity". The danger is now that the politcal rift might give rise to the self-image of two different "peoples", concentrated in the two different halves of the country, of comparable size, but fundametally different orientations.
