SubJeff on 16/3/2014 at 20:58
Don't know if that's sarcastic or not.
There have been reports that people without Russian passports haven't been allowed to vote, voter intimidation, etc.
WoodsieLady on 16/3/2014 at 22:21
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
80% Voter turnout.
93% Voted for the Krim to join Russia.
Democracy at work.
This over 80% voter turnout is impressive.
Yes, it was a bit sarcastic.
Still remember some reports about possible frauds when Medvedev won presidential elections, so I don't really believe in democracy when Russia is involved.
Anyway, it's not that much about people's choice after all, maybe the majority really wants to join Russia, but it's about the manner this referendum is pushed forward.
Gryzemuis on 16/3/2014 at 22:35
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Don't know if that's sarcastic or not.
Where do you see sarcasm ?
No, I was not being sarcastic.
Quote:
There have been reports that people without Russian passports haven't been allowed to vote, voter intimidation, etc.
I'm sure there have been irregularities. There are always irregularities in any elections. Heck, this week we're having nation-wide elections in my country (NL) for local city councils. And there have already been 4 reported incidents where politicians have been buying votes. Does that mean that this referendum is rigged ? Does it mean that the people in the Krim do not want to join Russia ? Heck no.
A referendum is the best form of democracy. Heck, I think it's the only form of true democracy. I am sick and tired of the western form of democracy. Where you get to vote "on everything" at the same time. Only once every 4 years. Where politicians are not bound to deliver what they promised. Etc, etc. The West calling this referendum illegal makes me puke. The hypocrisy in unbelievable.
Last year, the Falklands had a referendum about joining Argentina or not. The people on the islands voted to stay with the UK. Cameron was the first to yell at Argentina that they should respect the wishes of the people of the Falklands. But in the Krim a similar referendum is suddenly illegal ?
US says that the referendum is violating international law. What's international about this situation ? The people of the Krim deciding themselves what they want. If the result had been 45-55% I would not have known what to think. But with 82% turnout, and 95% voting to join Russia, it is clear. How can anyone be against the vote of the people ?
US says that the referendum is violating international law. The US was pissing on international laws when they invaded Iraq. They invaded Granada, remember ? The US does not even recognize the International Court of Justice in Den Haag.
The real reason the west was opposed to against this referendum was because they knew for a fact that the referendum would not decide how they like it. And in the west, democracy is great, but only if 1) the result is predictable, and 2) the result is exactly what "the powers that be" want them to be.
I've been watching Dutch news-tv, BBC World News, CNN Europe and Russia Today. The Dutch news-tv and CNN make me puke. The bias is unbelievable. The choice of words is unbelievable. The BBC is a bit more quiet. And Russia Today is spouting they usual russian propaganda. But in between their propaganda, there is a lot more truth in their reporting than there is in CNN's.
Did you see the footage from the Krim today ? Did you see the tanks and the soldiers that were intimidating the people ? Forcing them to vote for Russia ? No ? Because there weren't any. Did you see the happy people ? Did you see the flags ? Did you see the street-interviews with regular people ? I'm sure the referendum was not perfect. But who still does not want to acknowledge that a huge majority of the people of the Krim rather belong to Russia than to Ukraine, those people are in huge denial.
bukary on 16/3/2014 at 22:36
I may sound like some naive doomsayer, but...
This whole situation is a shame for all Western world, because so far the biggest and the most powerful coutries bahave in exactly the same way as they behaved just before and just after World War II: our money and possible votes are more important than some people in some not-so-distant country; let's not enrage Russia too much. Everyone knows exactly if such attitiude was as "profitable" as expected.
As for the Russia... the level of brainwashing (oh yes, Soviet media are very good at newspeak) or hypocrisy among Adolf/Joseph Putin followers is incredible. Russia has invaded an independent country under the pretense of protecting Russian citizens (although we know very well that they were in no danger) and organized a referendum in order to allow people to express their "democratic" wishes of not being part of Ukraine any more. Yet:
* Crimea is part of Ukraine and such referendum is confilcting with Ukrainian constitution;
* somehow Russians did not allow the citizen of Chechnya to do the same (create their own country) and butchered them like animals instead.
More, Putin's Russia behaved exectly like Stalin's Russia in 1939. They invaded Ukraine when this country was in the middle of democratic revolution (called "nazi revolution" by Russian propaganda) and, hence, weakened. It was the same in 1939: on the 1st of September Germany attacked Poland (under the pretense of protecting their own interests and citizens - see any pattern?), and on the 17th of September Russia stabbed weakened Poland in the back by attacking from the other side (Ribbentrop-Molotov pact). Yes, not everyone knows that Russia was one of the countries that started World War II. It seems that Putin's Russia (just like Stalin's) has no balls and invades the already weakened countries.
And what did Europe do when the war started (and just before)? "We will not die for Poles! They should have given Hitler this corridor to Gdansk! It's their fault." Do you remember Chamberlain's "appeasement"? :laff: Well, good luck with Germans, Mr. Chamberlain.
And what did Europe and America do when the war (almost) ended? Well, do you remember Yalta conference? They betrayed one of their main allays (Poland) and sold the whole Middle Europe to Stalin. Will Europe and America sell Crimea for fake "peace"?
And now Putin is spitting in Obama's and Merkel's face. "There's no Russian army in Crimea." :laff: History repeats itself.
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
Does it mean that the people in the Krim do not want to join Russia ? Heck no.
A referendum is the best form of democracy.
You are sooo... naive. More than I am. Perhaps you should read about the history of Crimea.
Imagine another situation.
Let's say that German immigrants (and I know how many of you, Dutchmen, hate immigrants) are being brought to Netherlands in hundreds of buses. They start to populate the whole Gelderland. And after, say, 50 years they are, like, 80% of population there. Suddenly German troops appear in Gelderland and... Germans want a referendum! Is it illegal? Are international observers denied access to the Gelderland? So what? "There are always irregularities in any elections." Guess what the outcome is? Yes, Gelderland should be part of Germany! Isn't "a referendum the best form of democracy"?
Gryzemuis on 16/3/2014 at 22:50
Quote Posted by bukary
Russia has invaded an independent country under the pretense of protecting Russian citizens
And what about the coup d'état that happened a few weeks ago in Kiev ? Was that according to international law ? The west stood cheering at the side. Suddenly international law, and the law of the Ukraine was forgotten. And now suddenly it is important again ?
What I find important is that people live under circumstances and laws that they pick themselves. Clearly the Krim does not want to belong to the Ukraine. The referendum was pretty clear in my eyes. It sucks for the 5% (or 10%) that did not want to belong to Russia. But such is democracy.
I can understand that you, as Pole, look very carefully at the situation. The Poles do not want anything to do with Russia. I understand that. But this is about the Krim. The situation in the Krim is pretty clear, and has always been pretty clear. Otherwise Putin might not have even dared to start this rolling. The situation in the eastern Ukraine is much more tricky. If I understood correctly, the balance pro-Ukraine/pro-Russia is more like 50/50 there. Now if that part of the Ukraine wants to join Russia too, that would be ridiculous. Then I would start to worry. I think some people are gonna try. That will be the event that decides whether it stops at the Krim, or becomes serious business.
I admit I don't know much about the history of the Krim (just a little, Khrushchev, etc). Got a link that explains the parts relevant to today's situation ?
As far as I understood it (from western media, correct me if I'm wrong) there are no OSVE observers in the Krim, not because they were denied access. But because they refuse to come because they say the referendum is illegal. Ostrich tactics.
bukary on 16/3/2014 at 22:51
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
But such is democracy.
Read my post above.
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
And what about the coup d'état that happened a few weeks ago in Kiev ? Was that according to international law ? The west stood cheering at the side. Suddenly international law, and the law of the Ukraine was forgotten. And now suddenly it is important again ?
You should understand one thing: there is a gradation of values. If you fight for freedom and justice, you should do it in any bloodless way possible. Otherwise (if people obeyed oppressive laws) there would be no Solidarity and half of the Europe would still be living behind the iron curtain.
The case of Crimea is not the case of people breaking free. They want to be Russians, they can. They live in A FREE COUNTRY. They can cross any border without problems. No one is imprisoning or threatning them. But it should not mean that they can encourage anyone to invade Ukraine. And it should not mean that they can "give" Crimea to Russia.
Would you agree to give one of your provinces to Germany or France (because Germans or French who live there want it to be part of their beloved country)?
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
balance pro-Ukraine/pro-Russia is more like 50/50 there
And the Crimea pro-Ukraine/pro-Russia balance is probably more like 60/40. Do not forget that 25% there are Ukrainians, and more than 10% - Tatars, aboriginal inhabitants, who are loyal to Ukraine. The outcome of referendum (although it would probably be won by Russian side) is completely unrelayable. Guess why? I honestly believe that you are not another victim of Russian propaganda.
As for the history of Crimea... check some statistics and find out when and why Russians became the largest group in this territory.
SubJeff on 16/3/2014 at 23:13
Argentina didn't have a massive military force waiting to invade if the referendum went the wrong way.
Gryzemuis on 16/3/2014 at 23:44
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Argentina didn't have a massive military force waiting to invade if the referendum went the wrong way.
That's bullshit. Don't watch too much CNN.
If you want to make an objection, then make the objection that the Krim and Russia wanted the referendum because they knew in advance what the outcome would be. That's not rigging a referendum. But it's close. They used the falsehood of democracy to achieve their political goal. Just like the west is doing the worst possible things to humanity, all under the false blanket of so-called democracy.
SubJeff on 16/3/2014 at 23:46
How is it bs? And I never watch CNN. I live in the UK.
Gryzemuis on 16/3/2014 at 23:57
Quote Posted by bukary
Otherwise (if people obeyed oppressive laws) there would be no Solidarity and half of the Europe would still be living behind the iron curtain.
I agree that Poland did a splendid job in the eighties. And many eastern countries are in debt to them. But today's case is different, I think. The Poles didn't want to belong to the Warschau Pact. But here 90%+ of the people in the Krim want to be part of Russia. How can you be opposed to that ? Do you really believe that in secrecy, the majority does not want that ? That Russia has forced them to show up at 82% ?
Quote:
And it should not mean that they can "give" Crimea to Russia.
I know the western media love called it an invasion. And keep saying the Russia annexed the Krim. But when I look at it, I see no invasion and no annexation. I see the people of the Krim voting to get free from Ukraine, and join Russia. What is not democratic about that ? I understand that you don't like it. And that 5% of the people in the Krim don't like it. But what is wrong with the referendum ?
Quote:
Would you agree to give one of your provinces to Germany or France (because Germans or French who live there want it to be part of their beloved country)?
Heck, we're giving our whole country away. It's called "European Union". We lose the right to make our own laws (Brussels laws overrule our own laws). We are forced into more "free markt" crap. We're giving our money away as if it was free money anyway (via Greece into the pockets of bankers). But let me stop here.
On a more serious note, I think we should give our whole country (The Netherlands) away to Belgium. On the condition that France gives its country away to Belgium as well. Then Belgium splits, and we get 2 new countries (where we had 3: NL, BE and FR). We then have Great-Flanders (NL + northern half of Belgium) and Great-Wallonia (FR + southern half of Belgium). That would solve a lot of problems ! And to be honest, I like the people from Flanders a lot more than my country-men from the west of my country.
Quote:
The outcome of referendum (although it would probably be won by Russian side) is completely unrelayable. Guess why? I honestly believe that you are not another victim of Russian propaganda.
I can't know the truth of course. But so far, I do not see any evidence that the outcome is completely false. If it were, the western press would be all over it. They are looking for a smoking gun. They can't find any. Remember the US elections of 2000 ? Now that was a rigged election if I ever have seen one. Nobody talking about that much anymore. And the sad thing is, the fraud by the Bush family had a huge negative impact on the whole world. (Iraq, etc). Americans calling the Krim referendum unreliable is a Chutzpah (gotspe).
