The Philosophy of Thief?

Solabusca on 12/10/2007 at 21:17

Quote Posted by RavynousHunter

From what I've read, there are the four "classical" elements, Earth, Air, Fire, and Water, along with two others, which are derived from the four, Life and Death. As for a seventh... Perhaps the seventh is Infinity, the infinite circle of the elements, and the ever repeating circle of Life and Death.

... I have no idea where you're getting this notion of 'six elements' (including life and death) from the (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element) classical elements.

The Hindus and the Greeks had the four - five if you include Aristotelian Ether.

Early Indians had three: earth, fire, water. Buddhists had the classic elements + void.

Chinese had earth, metal, wood, fire, water.

Quote Posted by Snakeskin

Okay so the four elements are clearly distinguished from the other three, yes?

Thus i will have to abandon my second chart with [chaos order] and [ego samaritan] and replace it somehow with the three new elements and still find a place to have the chaos-order axis, since it is clearly a very large part of the thief universe. Being the main theme of the whole series basically.

Then waht is your take on the meaning of the three elements:

Light (borning, life?)
Leaf (life again? plants??)
Darkness (death?)

Okay, I'm not sure what you're trying to do here, now, Snakeskin. You're attempting to come up with an alignment system for your RPG, correct?

And find a way to use this to create characters?

Well, first, your Scale of Personality is nothing more than the D&D Law/Chaos - Good/Evil axis. Dress it up, if you want, but you've pretty much mapped out exactly that.

As for your Circle of Elements - it makes little sense in that it implies that someone who is incredibly strong would be lacking in co-ordination (the counter elements of Fire and Water). That's a bit... counter-intuitive, in many respects. While it is possible to be a big, clumsy ox, it's also possible to be a large and lithe individual.

.j.

Snakeskin on 12/10/2007 at 21:20

I think that the "life" element need to be in the middle, living organisms need air to breathe as well. And "fire" should in this cade be interpreted as the force which allows the others to create life, since the body sends out heat.

I thus want to give the middle element in the chart the meaning of "life-force" and the to the meaning of "light" which will create living beings, while "darkess" wil use the life element to create undead beings.
Thus we can conveniently place "life" in the middle and together with the other two create effects of "life" in combinations.
Light and darkness should also have other meanings than normal life and undeath, separate from the "life" bit when used separately from it.

DX-455 on 12/10/2007 at 21:24

Explain the difference between coordination and agility. are they really SO different as to need separate ability scores?

Solabusca on 12/10/2007 at 21:56

Quote Posted by Snakeskin

Actually, I'd say that the "Borning/Light" and "Black/Dark" on the axis would be at opposite ends - the middle 'element' would be Green - plant/life. I'd say it was something along the lines of Weaver/Wyld/Wyrm, truth be told.

Quote Posted by DX-455

Explain the difference between coordination and agility. are they really SO different as to need separate ability scores?

He's probably splitting a Dexterity style stat into Manual Dexterity and Physical Co-ordination - fine detail work vs. flexibility, if you will.

Personally, and with no offense to Snakeskin, I find his choice of system far too crunchy for my tastes.

.j.

Snakeskin on 12/10/2007 at 22:20

Solabusca:
About the same ideas as i have then, but i do not really understand your bit about wyverns..

DX:
As solabusca said, i think that using agility to aim a bow or create a small detailed object for example is simplifying things, and not correct. Agility will be used for controlling one's whole body when moving, climbing and the like.

The system is a few levels above your standard D20 game in complexity, but i do not believe that it so much that it gets in the way of gameplay fun. It runs smooth and fast, at least when i playtested it with my group of players.
About the abilities, is two more than the standard six really that much?
I never understood the absurdness of incorporating the six human senses in an ability and calling it "Wisdom"..

Solabusca on 12/10/2007 at 22:46

Quote Posted by Snakeskin

Solabusca:
About the same ideas as i have then, but i do not really understand your bit about wyverns..

The (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triat_(World_of_Darkness)) World of Darkness Triat.

Quote Posted by Snakeskin

About the abilities, is two more than the standard six really that much?
I never understood the absurdness of incorporating the six human senses in an ability and calling it "Wisdom"

Well, six is really only 'standard' in D&D - since it is the grand-pappy of the RPG industry, it's close enough for horseshoes and hand-grenades.

Additionally, the 'Wisdom' score used to represent "inspiration, intuition, common sense, and shrewdness" in older versions of the game. It's taken on additional elements of willpower and perception in 3rd Editon, primarily because they really didn't want to add another attribute (remember Comliness, anyone?) and wisdom was under-represented in it's use.

.j.

Snakeskin on 12/10/2007 at 23:26

Interesting, although a bit unclear, definitions.
The three elements would maybe be similar to these three, as you see there are similarities between my "ego" and the Wyrm, and "samarite" and Wyld.
These two would form the opposites darkness and light.
The middle force, the life force would be the essence of beings and the thing that uses, and gets used by the other six elements in turn.
What do you think of this?

Well, it is only the grand pappy because the system is easy and appeals to a large crowd. Most of these people like things like "leveling" "xp" and systems like HP and see the primary fun of roleplaying in getting a powerful character.
Most of these people, however, are children.
I like the D20 system in computer games, it does really well there, but as an PNPRPG base it works against the principles of roleplaying, which should not be about XP, rather about the experience and the actual roleplaying.

Too unrealistic and simple for me to use, and i think it would not handle a thief RPG well, in any way. However this discussion is becoming too off topic now.

Solabusca on 13/10/2007 at 00:15

Quote Posted by Snakeskin

Quote Posted by D20 SRD

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

Sound familiar?

Anyways, you've completely misread the Triat.

At it's simplest, Wyld is Chaos. Weaver is Order. Wyrm is the balancing element between the two. Chaos, creation, destruction. Very Hindu/Vedic, if you will.

Quote:

Well, it is only the grand pappy because the system is easy and appeals to a large crowd. Most of these people like things like "leveling" "xp" and systems like HP and see the primary fun of roleplaying in getting a powerful character.
Most of these people, however, are children.

That is an offensive statement in the extreme, sir. D&D is, bar none, the most played RPG around. It may not be my cup of tea, but saying that 'most people that play it are children' is disingenuous in the extreme.

Anyways - Experience Points is just an advancement process. The more stuff you do, the better you get at things. Most games have an advancement process - 'Levelling' is only one. I can think of a very few RPGs that don't incorporate an advancement setup in some way.

Quote:

I like the D20 system in computer games, it does really well there, but as an PNPRPG base it works against the principles of roleplaying, which should not be about XP, rather about the experience and the actual roleplaying.

We'll have to agree to disagree. And I disagree strongly. And I say this as someone who isn't a particularly big fan of the D20 system.

I can tell that part of the problem you have with XP is that you seem to think that you only gain it for killing things and taking their stuff. That is an incorrect assessment.

Now, I won't disagree that the XP/Levelling system as it stands in D20-based systems is artificial. The same holds true for (http://www.3rdedition.org/agimimnon/viewer.asp?ID=11) 'Hit Points'(easily solved by switching to the alternate Vitality/Wound system).

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Too unrealistic and simple for me to use, and i think it would not handle a thief RPG well, in any way. However this discussion is becoming too off topic now.

Odd, given that there are a number of thief RPGs run using D&D rules. Given that it's one of the core classes (oh, wait, that's right, it's the more PC Rogue now).

Again, if you switched to a vitality system, or made use of an OGL-varient like True20, Iron Heroes or even a fantasy modded SAGA system, you could make more than adequate use of the mechanics.

As to it being unrealistic - well, I'm hard pressed to think of a single game that IS. Adding crunch doesn't make it more realistic, it just makes it crunchier. And you say simple like it's a bad thing.

As for myself, I'm a Savage Worlds fan. My own Thief RPG is based on Savage Worlds.

There's a lot of systems out there, sir. Just because you add more crunch doesn't make them better.

Take a look at the direction that gaming as a whole is going. There are two pushes - one towards more narrative styles of play, and one towards a simpler rules-set.

.j.

[EDIT TO ADD: I would like to re-affirm that I hold no grudge against Snakeskin. I do tend to disagree, strongly in some cases, with his ideas about gaming systems, but that is beside the point. To each their own, and I'm not about to tell him that the way he plays with his friends is wrong.]

Snakeskin on 13/10/2007 at 00:54

Quote Posted by Solabusca

Actually, I completely disagree with you here.

Your "Ego" trait, defined by selfishness, self-interest, and whatnot, is a direct mirror of the traits of the Evil alignments in the D&D system.

Your "Samarite" trait, defined by the willingness to place others ahead of self, is a direct mirror of Good.

Sound familiar?

Anyways, you've completely misread the Triat.

At it's simplest, Wyld is Chaos. Weaver is Order. Wyrm is the balancing element between the two. Chaos, creation, destruction. Very Hindu/Vedic, if you will.

That is an offensive statement in the extreme, sir. D&D is, bar none, the most played RPG around. It may not be my cup of tea, but saying that 'most people that play it are children' is disingenuous in the extreme.

Anyways - Experience Points is just an advancement process. The more stuff you do, the better you get at things. Most games have an advancement process - 'Levelling' is only one. I can think of a very few RPGs that don't incorporate an advancement setup in some way.

We'll have to agree to disagree. And I disagree strongly. And I say this as someone who isn't a particularly big fan of the D20 system.

I can tell that part of the problem you have with XP is that you seem to think that you only gain it for killing things and taking their stuff. That is an incorrect assessment.

Now, I won't disagree that the XP/Levelling system as it stands in D20-based systems is artificial. The same holds true for (http://www.3rdedition.org/agimimnon/viewer.asp?ID=11) 'Hit Points'(easily solved by switching to the alternate Vitality/Wound system).

Odd, given that there are a number of thief RPGs run using D&D rules. Given that it's one of the core classes (oh, wait, that's right, it's the more PC Rogue now).

Again, if you switched to a vitality system, or made use of an OGL-varient like True20, Iron Heroes or even a fantasy modded SAGA system, you could make more than adequate use of the mechanics.

As to it being unrealistic - well, I'm hard pressed to think of a single game that IS. Adding crunch doesn't make it more realistic, it just makes it crunchier. And you say simple like it's a bad thing.

As for myself, I'm a Savage Worlds fan. My own Thief RPG is based on Savage Worlds.

There's a lot of systems out there, sir. Just because you add more crunch doesn't make them better.

Take a look at the direction that gaming as a whole is going. There are two pushes - one towards more narrative styles of play, and one towards a simpler rules-set.

.j.

I agree with you on that. The difference is that i do not define them good or evil in the american-film-like easy to understand manner of D&D.

Maybe i did, since the first time i read it through was 2 minutes a few moments ago.
Wyld is chaos, i agree with that.
Weaver seems to be a force of life, not simple life but advanced intelligent life, and the things that follow from it. It would then have a similar meaning to the "life-force" element i described.
In what way is Wyrm balancing? it seems to be a complete opposite.

It was never meant to be an offensive statement, you are interpreting it as one. I do not like that kind of arrogance.
D20 is simple. That is good and bad. The simplicity and effects of it are attractive to a younger audience, and at the same time makes for a fun system, and simple enough to use in PC games.
You know yourself that D20 is the largest-by-far first RPG for new roleplayers, almost everyone has played it. Is it then wrong to say that it attracts a young fanbase?
I do not in any way state that all D20 players would be immature, that is again your completely own iterpretation. Please stop doing that.
I think that it has it's purposes, and i know that i once liked it and played it like mad, however just because i have moved on to more "specialized" rulesets do not mean that i think it is a bad gaming system.
That would be totally stupid since it is by far the largest RPG out there.

That is not strange, since people like the system. However I do not think it would fit a thief setting. That is based upon my own experience and opinions, and that is also why i am separating the rules from the fanon in the ongoing project, so that other can use what system they like.

And also i never said i wanted to make a totally realistic gaming system, only one that is more straight-forward and more realistic than the gamey system of D20.
If a new system with two more abilities is too much for you to handle, then dont. Im sure you find your own system more appealing, but do not patronize others.

I find your last post pretty immature, and it seems that you deliberately angle my statements and aim to make me look immature. Why i do not know, and it certainly was not the point of this thread.
I asked you to stop with the RPG discussion in my last post, but you paid no heed and continued off-topic with that banter.

That was hardly what i expected from one of the most respected TTLG hangarounds. :nono:

Solabusca on 13/10/2007 at 01:54

Quote Posted by Snakeskin

I agree with you on that. The difference is that i do not define them good or evil in the american-film-like easy to understand manner of D&D.

That's the problem. You THINK you don't. But you're using the exact same system with new names.

Quote:

Wyld is chaos, i agree with that.
Weaver seems to be a force of life, not simple life but advanced intelligent life, and the things that follow from it. It would then have a similar meaning to the "life-force" element i described.
In what way is Wyrm balancing? it seems to be a complete opposite.

Here's the original myth:

The three members of the Triat were balanced with one another in the beginning. Creation began with the Wyld. The Wyld is chaos and the infinite realm of possibility, constantly swirling with change, shifting forms endlessly. From the Wyld's heedless creation came growth. Gaia [ED NOTE: GAIA is the WtA name for the world/spirit] sprang from the Wyld.

The Weaver, the embodiment of order, selected portions of creation from the Wyld and gave them structure; kept them from dissolving back into chaos at the moment of their birth. In doing so, the Weaver began to create the fabric of the universe - the Pattern Web.

The Wyrm was once the restorer of balance. Residing between the Pattern Web and the chaos of the Wyld, it ensuring that neither the order of the Weaver nor the chaos of the Wyld prevailed throughout reality, removing all that was not harmonious.

Wyld is chaos/unending creation. Weaver is the form - it stabilizes the creation. Wyrm stops one or the other from becoming too strong.

In the WoD games, something bad has happened to the Wyrm, and it's become corrupted - it destroys and corrupts without purpose.

Quote:

It was never meant to be an offensive statement, you are interpreting it as one. I do not like that kind of arrogance.

As a statement it smacked of elitism and arrogance. I don't see how it could be construed as anything but. It suggested that the vast majority of players of D&D are either only interested in powerlevelling, or are too inexperienced to know what good roleplaying is. By saying that 'most people only play to do X' and then saying 'most people that play are young', you basically are very clear about how you're looking down on them.

Quote:

I do not in any way state that all D20 players would be immature, that is again your completely own interpretation. Please stop doing that.

You're right. You suggested that most are immature. Again, perhaps that's not what you intended, but it's what you conveyed.

Quote:

I think that it has it's purposes, and i know that i once liked it and played it like mad, however just because i have moved on to more "specialized" rulesets do not mean that i think it is a bad gaming system.
That would be totally stupid since it is by far the largest RPG out there.

How about this. You seem to think that 'crunchier' rules-sets are better. That's fine. I've played the crunchiest of crunchy. Hell, I've played old-school Chivalry & Sorcery, Aftermath, WFRP and a slew of others. For those not in the loop - Crunch = Game mechanics and rules. Fluff = flavour and atmosphere.

I like different kinds of crunch, now.

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...that is also why i am separating the rules from the fanon in the ongoing project, so that other can use what system they like.

And I'm not going to fault you there. I think keeping setting and rules separate is the way to go.

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And also i never said i wanted to make a totally realistic gaming system, only one that is more straight-forward and more realistic than the gamey system of D20.

I don't see how your system is any less 'gamey' than D20. I can talk about it with you in PM, if you wish.

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If a new system with two more abilities is too much for you to handle, then dont. Im sure you find your own system more appealing, but do not patronize others.

Nice slam with the comment about it being 'too much' for me, though.

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I find your last post pretty immature, and it seems that you deliberately angle my statements and aim to make me look immature. Why i do not know, and it certainly was not the point of this thread.

Again, though you may not realize it, the wording you used was fairly confrontational, and unfortunately was more than a little offensive. I called you on it. Should I have done it in PM? Perhaps. I'm used to responding in public.

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I asked you to stop with the RPG discussion in my last post, but you paid no heed and continued off-topic with that banter.

I didn't take your comment to mean that you wanted to expunge RPG talk from this thread. Apologies, then.

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That was hardly what i expected from one of the most respected TTLG hangarounds. :nono:

Okay, that's surprising. I'm respected? When did that happen?

Wow.

Now can we leave the posturing about RPG-styles behind? Again, I'm not telling you that your gaming style is badwrongfun; I just ask that you extend the same courtesy to other dice-chuckers.

And if you want some actual input on your RPG rules, feel free to ask via PM.

.j.