Quicksilver on 2/7/2009 at 13:29
That's your interpretation surely. The questiosn put by the original poster are 'what ifs'. Simply stating what you believe to be the matter isn't exactly opening up the floor for further discussion. As for the future of Garrett, I do not believe I inferred just making the Keepers what they were, if I did, forgive me but what I meant was for Garrett to restart *a* Keeper organisation. Not the one gone past but a new one, the same way the first Keepers would have needed to establish and organise themselves. The Glyphs you note, originally they were written by someone, now that they've disappeared there is no proof all Glyph magic is gone. So someone could write them again, or new ones.
As for yuor interpretation of Garrett only ever wanting to be done with the Keepers and go his own way, that's certainly one interpretation. But as I mentioned above, he does seem to be far less grudging and far more accepting in Thief DS. In fact throughout all three games while prophecy might have been a cause or his own selfish motives were the issue, Garrett did things he decided to do. Spoiler: Referring to the acceptance in DS, in the cutscene when he's asked to kill Gamal I am probably not the only one that noticed that he accepted it without too much consternation. Throughout the three games he is on a journey from being the imbalanced and angry man that leaves the Keeper, through TDP, TMA and the coming of the Dark Age. And on that journey I hope I'm not the only one to notice him becoming far more 'balanced'. In fact even in DS, you can ally with both factions, bringing balance and correcting the corruption in the Keepers. So could it not be possible that the Garrett we know and love has developed into a balanced individual capable of helping to pass the Dark Ages by helping the City? Spolier: He even returned the Chalice and Paw at the end of DS, showing he restored Balance, that was optional. He could have just gone and sold them which angry imbalanced Garrett would have done. Then there's the orphan incident. He could have handled that differently but chose Artemus' (A Keeper's) words as his own.
Back on topic though, the Keeper's aren't the only issue. Say if the Dark Age is the next period, what way would the City survive? Which Faction would flourish and what new threats could arrive without Keeper balance?
Ostriig on 2/7/2009 at 14:00
Quote Posted by Quicksilver
1) [...] Introducing a character intended to be like Garrett would well...it would be as dispiriting as JC's replacement in Deus Ex IW.
Open to debate. For me,
not playing as JC was one of the few things Invisible War really got right. But then they managed to cock it all up by having several key characters of IW be returning DX characters or closely related to them. In the end, it started feeling like a soap opera filled chock-full of shoddy tie-ins. I liked JC as a protagonist in DX1, and Paul as a supporting character, but I'm honestly hoping DX3 never features the name "Denton" in it, except maybe right in the ending cinematic, if it's an absolute must.
Quote Posted by Keeper Jonas
His improbable life was the thread running through the trilogy.
"Improbable" is the key word here. Because that's how a character starts looking when you heap adventure upon adventure on them. Triumph against incredible odds,
again and again, turns a character into one of two things: either a messianic icon or a super-hero. One is or is becoming a figure of divine proportions dealing in adequate contexts and acting as a result of suitably elevated motivations, the other is
comic book material. Either way, the character stops being truly relatable to, they stop garnering your affection with a believable human personality and history.
I'm not saying that a ThIVf featuring Garret as a protagonist will necessarily ruin the character in such a way. I'm saying it's a risk. And one that increases with each improbable adventure the same protagonist successfully completes, to the point Garret in Thief 13 will certainly be nothing more than a cynical Spiderman.
Oh, and another thing, since I've seen a bunch of Tomb Raider analogies prancing about this part of TTLG - for those entertaining that notion, are you really comparing your favourite game character to a pair of gun-wielding tits? Lara Croft doesn't constitute a compelling character, she's there as a one-woman stereotype, which is intentional. As a character, she's come to represent a specific type of gameplay and setting, not a certain person/personality. And she makes the box easy to pick out on the store shelf.
mcnils on 2/7/2009 at 14:10
Nice thread indeed, kind of wraps up a lot of the talk going on right now!
1) If they manage to come up with a good way to continue the franchise
maintaining its peculiarities AND changing the main character, thats fine, Ostriig puts it perfectly.
2) Again its not so important, in the sense that it could be both,
i just want a plausible excuse to be sent taffing, in the world and with the kind of immersion we all love.
3) Personally, i liked the limited environs of The City,
the occasional grave rob or haunted house is fine, but i loved the decision to keep it more urban, and human.
4) The ending of TDP and TMA in its whole were already quite modernistic,
but yes i agree, i'd hate to see "Garrett in New York jacking a car", the whole magic of the series would be lost.
5) Benny's legacy will never die. He lives on inside each one of us! ^^ Mostly when we are at work...
6) In my opinion resorting to resurrecting defeated foes has to be a well pondered thing.
And pheraps wholly unnecessary, also. If, lets say, Constantine died, it doesnt mean the Trickster did, too.
7) Nothing more to add to what Quicksilver said, he was spot on.
8) The Builder exists, he just does not intervene as directly as the Trickster,
a bit like in the Christian creed where the Devil corrupts and God overwatches his pious.
Platinumoxicity on 2/7/2009 at 14:39
Quote Posted by Quicksilver
That's your interpretation surely. The questiosn put by the original poster are 'what ifs'. Simply stating what you believe to be the matter isn't exactly opening up the floor for further discussion.
Back on topic though, the Keeper's aren't the only issue. Say if the Dark Age is the next period, what way would the City survive? Which Faction would flourish and what new threats could arrive without Keeper balance?
The next age that was stated in the last prophecies are the "unwritten times." I think it symbolizes the fact that the keepers are powerless and they have no means of knowing the future. :thumb:
That's your interpretation surely. But don't you agree that the way Garrett has always been the central figure and influence in the propecies until now, fits perfectly to the status of a "true keeper"? And considering the series' pretty good writing and story, don't you agree that an event where the main character suddenly finds out that he's always been "the one" without knowing it, is a much more clever example of writing than the main character accomplishing something significant and thus becoming "the one"?
The reason why jtr7 and myself believe this scenario more than the other option is that it fits better to the type of story that the Thief-games made of. It's more clever and less obvious. ;) It takes more thought to figure out.
As a child, when I had a simple mind and I was used to the basic "Hollywood" story structure, I probably would believe as you do. (Not implying anything BTW) If I had played some of the Silent Hill games as a kid, I would have had no idea what's going on, because figuring out a complex, mysterious philosophical or psychological story isn't really that easy for a child's simple way of thinking. That's great writing, and when you add some obvious and easy-to-figure-out, major story element in a brilliantly complex story, it doesn't fit.
Quicksilver on 2/7/2009 at 15:35
I don't quite understand what you believe me to have thought the story to encapsulate? At no point have I said or thought that Garrett 'became' the one nor have I entertained that thought that he believed himself the one. In fact I'm quite sure I implied he became accepting of the Keeper role, the True Keeper role. That was thrust on him after the last cutscene when he didn't want to be played (a typical reaction by Garrett with selfish motives). When you read far more into 'the Holywood' type as you put it, only the player knows the little bits of text in loading screens. Garrett is in fact not aware of it bar what you read in mission. To sum up, my above posts have never said anything simplistic about Garrett, he's quite complex, far more so in fact that we get to see in the game content. But characters change and develope, my point was that Garrett had moved on from being the acolyte that left out of the greater folly of anger, to being far more balanced ie. being capable of allying with both pagans and Hammers. Thus it's a development of character, as well of story that makes the possibilities for the future.
And to touch on your second point, Garrett being the protagonist in the first 3 games made him a catalyst to bring about balance, 3 main factions were rebalanced, Pagans, Hammers/Mechanists and then the Keepers. My ramblings on including Garrett in another game would be to have him navigating the dark ages or unwritten times after accepting that he was a catalyst and balancer all along.
I hope that clears up my standpoint a bit.
mcnils on 2/7/2009 at 15:44
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
don't you agree that an event where the main character suddenly finds out that he's always been "the one" without knowing it, is a much more clever example of writing than the main character accomplishing something significant and thus becoming "the one"?
To be honest stories involving a main character that finds out to be "the one" i find to be quite bland and banal in the first place, destiny was eversince a cheap and ancient excuse in storytelling to put a protagonist in harms way. I'd go one step further, the iconoclast inside me always liked to believe that The Keepers and their writings were just a pile of obscure and broadly generic self-fulfilling prophecies (to give you a better grasp on what i mean, think Nostradamus), dont mistake their foresayings with their records. I enjoy the concepts of duality, bogus and charlatanerie even in a setting where magic concretely exists, it helps me to maintain belief in the verosimilty of the fictional world. Much like in the real one where people still argue about causality or casuality of everything. Religions, philosophies, schools of science, the list goes on. And just this is part of that fascinates me with Thief, how there is not just one single universal truth conveyed, not even in the narration, at the beginning of every mission we are fed with different dogma (be it Keeper, Hammerite or Pagan). By all means believe what you want, but i dont think The Keepers were right in the first place. Shit just happens, and Garrett always was the right man in the wrong moment. In the end he just came to accept it and take it as it comes, with all his cynism and self denial, he finally realized what he is, through what he really does.
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
As a child, when I had a simple mind and I was used to the basic "Hollywood" story structure, I probably would believe as you do. (Not implying anything BTW)
Thats my take on the trilogy and the setting so far, and i'm sure everybody has his own. I'd be slower with generalizing folks that have different ideas into stereotypes. "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." (Aristotle) Having said that, i think we all greatly appreciate your points of view, it can be mutual! ^^
jtr7 on 2/7/2009 at 16:16
Quote Posted by Dia
An OT question jtr: did Dan Thron do the voices of the two guards arguing (on the rooftop guardposts) over their respective Lord and Lady (where they end up shooting arrows at each other)? That had to be the most singularly hysterical scene ever in any of the Thief games.
Dan did them, yes. :cool:
TYPED BEFORE YOUR OTHER POSTS, TAFFERS:
Garrett accepts he's the One, but it doesn't mean much more than what we've seen, and he had major help all the way, whether he wanted it or not, whether he knew it or not. The Glyphs didn't prophecy past the events of the end of TDS, so everyone is effectively rudderless. It should get messy, but each faction will stay true to their core values, or they will be imbalanced, and Garrett's work will matter not.
Quote Posted by Quicksilver
That's your interpretation surely. The questiosn put by the original poster are 'what ifs'. Simply stating what you believe to be the matter isn't exactly opening up the floor for further discussion. As for the future of Garrett, I do not believe I inferred just making the Keepers what they were, if I did, forgive me but what I meant was for Garrett to restart *a* Keeper organisation. Not the one gone past but a new one, the same way the first Keepers would have needed to establish and organise themselves. The Glyphs you note, originally they were written by someone, now that they've disappeared there is no proof all Glyph
magic is gone. So someone could write them again, or new ones.
As for yuor interpretation of Garrett only ever wanting to be done with the Keepers and go his own way, that's certainly one interpretation. But as I mentioned above, he does seem to be far less grudging and far more accepting in Thief DS. In fact throughout all three games while prophecy might have been a cause or his own selfish motives were the issue, Garrett did things he decided to do. Spoiler:
Referring to the acceptance in DS, in the cutscene when he's asked to kill Gamal I am probably not the only one that noticed that he accepted it without too much consternation. Throughout the three games he is on a journey from being the imbalanced and angry man that leaves the Keeper, through TDP, TMA and the coming of the Dark Age. And on that journey I hope I'm not the only one to notice him becoming far more 'balanced'. In fact even in DS, you can ally with both factions, bringing balance and correcting the corruption in the Keepers. So could it not be possible that the Garrett we know and love has developed into a balanced individual capable of helping to pass the Dark Ages by helping the City? Spolier:
He even returned the Chalice and Paw at the end of DS, showing he restored Balance, that was optional. He could have just gone and sold them which angry imbalanced Garrett would have done. Then there's the orphan incident. He could have handled that differently but chose Artemus' (A Keeper's) words as his own.Back on topic though, the Keeper's aren't the only issue. Say if the Dark Age is the next period, what way would the City survive? Which Faction would flourish and what new threats could arrive without Keeper balance?
I'll point out that, yes, all these topics have their own threads in redundancy and many posts in general threads cover this, but what's remaining for the factions in the Unwritten Times are the Hand Mages and the followers of Azaran the Cruel and the Necromancer, and the concepts that were being developed for Thief 2 Gold involving Necromancers. And then there's the Baron, either killed in the war with Blackbrook and replaced, or back from the war and aware of who knows what about all the goings on while he was away. The Nobility have not had their time of imbalance and corrupt splinter group, so I've suggested something involving the Baron, but not himself as the corrupt one, but a corrupt City Council and corrupt "power behind the throne," as a concept. The Keepers are fish out of water and only their vast and intimate knowledge of The City and its people will give them the edge they desperately need. With their Compound overrun by the dangerously curious and the looters, and hopefully with investigators looking into this scary event, the Keepers are already imbalanced and need to stick to their codes as much as possible.
Prove me wrong with game fiction. It's not interpretation. You're just taking the easy road.:sly:
Garrett would not be a leader of any organization that has no means to do anything Keeper-like but be creepy voyeurs, rather than placing themselves in positions to influence indirectly to shift weights in the pans, nor would he ever have an inclination to lead thieves. If the centuries-old Glyph Queen couldn't write new Glyphs, what hope would they have? Most importantly, what you propose is a fresh start with the Keepers as though there was no real danger, no real "death" of the Order, and just a major setback that can be undone in the Keepers' lifetimes as they just rehide the Compound and rewrite the books, as if it was a town recovering from a hurricane that pulls itself back together and rebuilds in a few years, and not a major death blow to an Order that has lost all its privileges forever--basically, a resurrection trope, no better than bringing back Viki or Con, and as I said...the easy road.
Quote Posted by T_IntroQuote
Cry, Brethren, for the Betrayer is Come. Your Hands will be Crippled, and you will Perish as the Wretched Outcast in the Bleak Unwritten. And you will know the face of the Destroyer. - Recovered text from The Prophecitus, missing for 132 years
Quote Posted by T_museumLoadingQuote0
When the End of Words arrives, the fire will be driven from our hearts, and the efforts of the ages will be laid waste by the Betrayer. - surviving text fragment, Keeper Archives
Quote Posted by T_stonemarketLoadingQuote1
Beware the Age of Darkness / Light shall become shadow / Time shall become the enemy / Life shall become pain... - Excerpt from the Keeper Books of Prophecy
Quote Posted by T_stonemarket3LoadingQuote6
The One will venture where none have tread...and the First shall follow the Last. - Excerpt from the Keeper Books of Prophecy
Quote Posted by T_docksLoadingQuote4
As Keepers, it is our duty to remain apart - secret - invisible. To become part of the City would exert influences. - From The Eight Principles (Amended)
Quote Posted by T_auldaleLoadingQuote0
The First Keeper is merely a surrogate for the One True Keeper, whose eventual arrival we await with dread. - From the Collected Essays of D'Aberon
We don't know if Garrett returned the Artifacts, it just seems that's what happened so we choose to accept it (see how easy it is to play that game?), but most importantly, and true to his character, the Pagans and Hammers KNEW he had them, and he knew they knew, and the Paw and Chalice were not loot anyway! Saving himself much trouble, he was. Yes, he had a character-arc, but he's not going to do a heroic act without knowing what to do or thinking he has some clue before he acts, and now without guidance from non-existent Glyph instructions for the first time since he was an orphan. Glyph magic that somehow doesn't involve glyphs? How shall it be tapped, then, and how shall it brought about without making symbols? We saw that the Glyph Queen couldn't make new Glyphs anymore. Is it to power their wands, or what?
If you observe Garrett's arc, he's hating the Keepers and their nagging prophecies all along. In TDP he's told all happened as it was written and there's a book he should look at, but Garrett rejects it. In TMA he's told again that all happened as it was written and there's more he should look at, but now he's interested. It gives him a chance to be in charge of his own destiny and in TDS he's halfway correct about that. There's still a lot that happens that he wasn't aware would, and he misinterprets the glyphs more than once, and Artemus continues to influence people, and push and pull Garrett in the right direction. The fact that Garrett misinterpreted the glyphs and needed Artemus anyway should tell you that Garrett is not a leader, but an instrument of the Glyphs. Prove me wrong with game fiction, and not just pieces out of the whole. Interpret from the whole, not just the easily digestible bits. Insult me with game facts, not out of your feelings of rejection, which obscure the good points you made.
I hope the EM devs have an even bigger picture than we do of the story the LGS/ISA devs created. This is my admitted assumption about Garrett and his Mark:
Quote:
The safeguard against the Evil Ones will be found. The Last of All Glyphs that all can view but none can see. The Eye will be borne by the One who will not yet bear the Mark. Between the two none shall come until the Unwritten Times are upon us.
Quote Posted by T_museumLoadingQuote3
Holding a key, you may infer the existence of a lock. But do not make the mistake of assuming that yours is the only key. - Handbook for Scribes
Anyway, so you are playing with the words to suggest that the Last of ALL Glyphs means the "Last of ALL the Previous Glyphs up to the day the Failsafe was initiated"?:ebil:
I've come to my conclusions from dozens of sources, but how have you come to the conclusion that TDS presented us with some cause to hope that Constantine and/or Viktoria would one day return? That seems much more of a stretch than what you accuse me of. A loved one dies and the bereaved wish for their return, and it somehow means they can and will? Other than this quote, where have you derived your wishful thinking, especially about Con?
Quote:
I wishering that Viktoria comsey back to leading us.
Sequel or Prequel? ...Is it a coincidence that this other recent thread has that as it's title?: (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127304)
And I think number 8 is looking a bit in the wrong direction. Rather, take a faction and introduce something that would qualify as unfettered fanaticism to the point of corruption, going rogue, splintering off perhaps, and creating what will be a dangerous and fatal nightmare for many, with deaths along the way while striving toward the ultimate goal. Not the idea of each faction's concept of divinity incarnate, or effective equivalent.
mcnils on 2/7/2009 at 18:07
Quote Posted by jtr7
I hope the EM devs have an even bigger picture than we do of the story the LGS/ISA devs created.
Well, this hope is shared by all of us i trust.
I'm sure that beyond the franchise, they also own design & concept documents etc, plus, they still are recruiting talent, i'm very curious if there will be some people on the Dev team that were onboard for TDP/TMA/TDS. When a studio mentions that it has Devs which took part in the making of the Thief games i usually always have high hopes for it, and they didnt disapoint up to now, Bethesda for example managed to catch a few for their games stealth mechanics. But we're rather talking about the fiction now, so i guess it will be a matter entirely in the hands of the writers.
jtr7 on 2/7/2009 at 23:22
I think TDS suffered from having vital devs like Laura Baldwin and Eric Brosius only as consultants, because there's a profound shift in different and subtractive directions instead of a continuity the final chapter needed. The basic concepts behind the story are okay, but it could be punched up, made less buffoonish in the wrong places, more fun in others, richer in character-building of even supporting characters, and given more emotional impact than it had to reach the level of the earlier titles in intellectual depth. It was simply diluted from lack of time and high-tension and I don't blame the former-LGS employees for that. I hope EM can recruit a person to fill Laura Baldwin's writing shoes, and Dan Thron's artwork and vocal talents to challenge the masses to think deeper and appreciate the the works the games were referencing all throughout each mission. It couldn't be helped that they all grieved the death of LGS and their dream jobs, had to accept their fate and move on to other means of gainful employment, and then to be given a chance to finish what they started, with most of what they had to create the chemistry for lightning in a bottle gone.
Bring back the Blade Runner and Lovecraftian grit and weirdness, for instance. Leiber, Vance, and Eco. Bring back the tug-of-war between opposing factions that threaten to tear The City in half but with the NEW twist of Balance for the first time, forcing a NEW paradigm, while staying true to canon where TDS left off. It is a NEW world, but all the same people and history should be in the foundation the NEW game builds upon. Sweep nothing away so completely. Don't make the remnants of The City's past, and recent past, mere fan-service and novel bits scattered thinly across the missions. I want to see the SCARS of the past impacting the present.
Namdrol on 3/7/2009 at 01:04
Quote Posted by mcnils
Shit just happens, and Garrett always was the right man in the wrong moment. In the end he just came to accept it and take it as it comes, with all his cynism and self denial, he finally realized what he is, through what he really does.
Quote Posted by Ostriig
Open to debate. For me......................
Triumph against incredible odds,
again and again, turns a character into one of two things: either a messianic icon or a super-hero..............
So which? Choose.
Or...
Quote Posted by jtr7
Bring back the tug-of-war between opposing factions that threaten to tear The City in half but with the NEW twist of Balance for the first time, forcing a NEW paradigm, while staying true to canon where TDS left off. It is a NEW world, but all the same people and history should be in the foundation the NEW game builds upon. Sweep nothing away so completely. Don't make the remnants of The City's past, and recent past, mere fan-service and novel bits scattered thinly across the missions. I want to see the SCARS of the past impacting the present.
