Vasquez on 11/9/2012 at 11:31
First, I was a slightly surprised when (
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/08/dad-wears-skirts-to-support-5-year-old-son-who-dons-womens-clothing/) this made news here.
Then I decided to use it as a material on my creative writing class, to discuss norms - what and how common they are, how they often are invisible until someone breaks them, how we all have blind spots about them etc.
But the most surprised I was when these young people (~20-25), who live in a Scandinavian capitol, reacted in a very conservative way.
"The kid will be confused of what a man and a woman are."
"He'll grow up not knowing which sex he is."
"He will be bullied in school."
I asked them to elaborate their initial reaction, and most of them kept insisting that it's "just wrong". Dresses are for women, pants are for men, that's it.
I also asked if they could think of a purely rational reason why men couldn't wear a dress (especially since women can nowadays wear pants, at least in Finland). Nothing came up, only "Because it is so".
I know I shouldn't be surprised, but I am. I'm so beyond surprised I had to check the dictionary for an appropriate word: I'm flabbergasted.
Vivian on 11/9/2012 at 11:38
Quote Posted by Vasquez
"He will be bullied in school."
This part is, unfortunately, definitely true. But yeah, why not? Dude can wear a dress. I wouldn't, but I wouldn't stop someone else (unless they were planning on wearing said dress to somewhere where idiots would beat the shit out of them, like Banbury).
Vasquez on 11/9/2012 at 11:49
Yes, but he might be bullied even if he didn't wear a dress. Also if he grows up with a healthy self-esteem (which his dad is clearly helping), the risk of ending up a victim is considerably lower - even though it's never the victim's fault, the bullies do usually attack those who are already timid.
The Finnish version of the news had a "discussion" opened under it, and that was sad reading. We've recently had a case where a father and his female friend tortured an 8-year old girl to death, and still there were commenters who seemed to think the dress-dad was about the worst parent a child could have :rolleyes:
DDL on 11/9/2012 at 12:36
The kid might, arguably, grow up with a slightly more liberal interpretation of what social norms are, perhaps?
(though yeah, the bullying would probably beat that out of him)
Generally, changes to well-established social norms can take a while. And women wearing trousers is not quite analagous to men wearing dresses, as trousers are a more practical article of clothing in general: going from impractical & decorative to practical is an easier shift than the reverse.
Scots Taffer on 11/9/2012 at 12:48
With the exception of the comments regarding the boy not knowing the difference between the sexes (hopefully that one is easy to explain), how in the hell are their comments regarding confusion and likely bullying overly "conservative" and not just overly "logical"? Regardless of whether it is "right" or "wrong", ignore the norms of society at your peril. This is a fact of life.
If his Dad reckons putting on a skirt isn't actually just going to exacerbate this kid's pain in life, let's face it, you're living in a dream world. Again, not saying it's right, but it's a fact.
Cross-dressing is still a fairly niche taboo and to be honest, I'm not really sure what the hell I think about it. Has any research been conducted to show this isn't latent/early-stage transgenderism?
Vasquez on 11/9/2012 at 13:23
I was surprised at some of the quite judgemental or even angry-toned comments that came first, although those eased off after some thinking. Then I was surprised that even after having to admit that there are no purely rational reasons against men wearing dresses or skirts, many of them still stuck to the "But it's wrong because it's WRONG" -thought.
Maybe what I was looking for was the separation of one's personal emotional response and actual thinking of things. But considering the company I spend much of my free time with, I think I do live in a dream world. I guess it's something of a culture shock when I find out so concretely and first-hand that even in Finland it ain't always so ;)
And I know norms do have a function, thank you. They are numerous and all of them have served a purpose or other to become norms, but also there are so many norms that don't make much sense any more, and yet people hold on to them. No matter whether you want to follow the norms or not, I believe it's important to recognise and think about them every now and then - if not for other reason, at least because they hold such power over us.
And maybe also ask ourselves, why they stir such a strong reaction in us.
Edit. Not my students, but in those comments after the news probably the most surprising, even chilling thing was how so many saw this father as a BAD parent. Even if I disagreed about the dress-wearing, I couldn't help but admire how completely and devotedly this dad accepts his son just as he is.
Jason Moyer on 11/9/2012 at 13:26
Here's a secret - I used to wear women's clothing all the time (when I had the body for it) because it commandeered crazy amounts of ass. True story. No gender confusion. It was also a splendid idiot filter.
Vivian on 11/9/2012 at 13:45
Right, do you mean womens tops or a full-on dress, though? cos I wear womens tops reasonably often and it doesn't look all that out of place, a lot of stuff is quite close to unisex if you are skinny enough. I only went out in full-on girly shit once though - a mini-skirt and glitter top to a weird night - and it worked out pretty well, but it was that kind of crowd. I wouldn't go down the pub like that.
CCCToad on 11/9/2012 at 15:01
It's gotta be just things like women's jeans and shirts. I could very easily see that giving him a "pretty boy" look. If it works for him, more power to the guy, but my experience and observations is that if you can pull it off (HUGE if), the "bad boy" style and attitude pull a lot more girls.
add:
Quote:
And maybe also ask ourselves, why they stir such a strong reaction in us.
The answer is pretty simple. People are afraid.....of having to question their own world views, of being pushed outside their comfort zone, and of the bad feeling of being wrong about something. Remember the matrix? Most people, although they'd say they want the red pill if asked, choose the blue pill every day of their lives by choosing to believe what is comfortable over what is true.
SubJeff on 11/9/2012 at 15:10
Quote Posted by Vivian
it was that kind of crowd
Oh,
that kind? Oh yeah, hit me with the major, the damage, my clan understand it be flavor, gunning, humming, coming at you.
