DDL on 11/9/2012 at 18:21
"Primitive" doesn't exclude "rational", though.
A lot of our more primitive fears are entirely sensible, useful, 'retained throughout evolution' fears, like fear of heights, or fear of eating things that look like poop.
If you see something that is totally outside of your standard conventions, it can throw you. As an open-minded, worldly individual with a lot of exposure to the wonders of the internet, you might not feel threatened or indeed in any way surprised by a man in a dress. If you were an uneducated, unemployed, habitual drunk, racist homophobe from Bradford, you might...not feel the same way.
Vasquez on 11/9/2012 at 18:33
Quote Posted by DDL
"Primitive" doesn't exclude "rational", though.
No, but doesn't it go like this:
PRIMITIVE: Eek, what's that! Should I run or fight?!
followed by
RATIONAL: Oh, it's a dude in a skirt. Seems to mind his own business and not act in a threatening manner. Ok, that's a bit out of the usual but most likely harmless.
Quote Posted by DDL
If you were an uneducated, unemployed, habitual drunk, racist homophobe from Bradford, you might...not feel the same way.
But you see, that's what surprised me (not in a "ARGH YOU REDNECKS!" -way, just in a curious way) is that the students weren't as described above. Rather the opposite.
SubJeff on 11/9/2012 at 18:43
I'm easy going. I'll accept anyone so long as they're not an idiot. I've lived in Africa, Asia and Europe. I have friends of all races, nationalities, cultures and religions. I've seen kilts, some of my (Scottish) friends have worn them. One of my male Malaysian friends used to wear a sarong on occasion.
It's all good.
But a 5 year old wearing a skirt and his Dad following suit to ease the discomfort is still odd to me. Well it's unusual anyway. I don't think it's a big deal, but I also understand why it's in the news and why other people may think it's a big deal/weird; it's just outside the usual, the norm, the mainstream. And it's not enough of a niche thing (like being emo) to be a culturally normal sub-group behaviour.
Jason Moyer on 11/9/2012 at 19:09
From my own experiences trying to be weird as possible when I was young, I found that if I were wearing a skirt or something equally obnoxious that I actually ended up meeting tons of people who I doubt I ever would have met, and I'm talking completely normal well-adjusted people who I would have never talked to in a million years. That sort of thing tends to act as a nice filter, as people whose reaction is OMG WTF!!1 tend to be douchebags anyway, and quickly offending them basically cut out the possibility of spending significant time figuring that out.
Vasquez on 11/9/2012 at 19:21
^ :D
I do get the unusual part, and the news bit can also be seen as "good news" - a wonderful parent. Still, global news seems somewhat big for this.
To make it clear, I'm not pointing at my students for being narrow-minded, and of course they wouldn't bully a guy in a dress. We discussed the topic with thought and in good atmosphere, and they pondered why it seems so obviously clear that men just don't wear dresses - and why the thought is hard to shake. (Maybe that's what I'm trying to discuss with you guys now.)
For me, it was something of a revelation to realise how deep-rooted the male and female roles still are. My dream world is even farther from the real world than I had assumed!
Muzman on 11/9/2012 at 19:51
Quote Posted by DDL
Convention. That's basically what normality is.
If everyone and his uncle's doing it, yet person X is pointedly not, then person X appears abnormal.
The pope can wear a dress because he's already the fucking
pope, a position so far from the norm that he could dress up as a space lizard and it wouldn't really be that much weirder. Who is the pope? The pope. Who isn't the pope? Everyone else.
Similarly, convention has established that kilts are acceptable IF the person wearing them has a legitimate reason for wearing a kilt (for example being scottish) AND they call it a kilt, not a skirt.
Scottish person wearing a kilt: acceptably conventional
Scottish person wearing a skirt: unconventional
Non-scottish person wearing a kilt: unconventional
Non-scottish person wearing a skirt: unconventional
I'm not saying abnormality is necessarily BAD (though of course it
can be), it's simply...outside of the norm.
I was reminded of this
(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brg_zHXIHC8)
(I'm sorry, I have nothing useful to add at this time)
Kolya on 11/9/2012 at 20:57
Like Vasquez said: What an awesome dad. Once global warming fully comes in motion we'll all be wearing skirts anyway. Looking forward to it actually, cos I got the bod to swing it.
Pablo Picasso never got called an asshole.
Scots Taffer on 11/9/2012 at 23:57
Jason, do you mind me asking if you're straight or not? I'm just curious based on your first comment. Feel free to ignore this question if you don't want to answer or feel it's not relevant.
Second thing, when you say idiot filter, I get that those people who respond with "FAG" are being appropriately filtered, however I'd probably not bat an eye at it face-to-face but later be like "WTF".
CCCToad on 12/9/2012 at 01:21
Quote Posted by Vasquez
This is also something that keeps puzzling me. Why do some people seem to think that if someone else sees things and life differently, that means one or other must be
wrong?It doesn't mean that.....but a different perspective MIGHT force you to re-evaluate your assumptions, which is extremely uncomfortable for some people.
Quote:
RED: now you KNOW how pointless everything is, but you remain unable to do anything about it, ever. Continue living as a drone.
Then I think you'd be surprised at how damn attractive that blue pill is.
Actually, as Cypher points out...life outside the matrix kinda sucks. And the choice isn't to be living as a drone......its about learning how life works, and how to use that to your advantage and make it work for you.
Angel Dust on 12/9/2012 at 01:25
I'm guessing he just likes being provocative, Scots, and ideally your 'WTF?' moment, which is a perfectly understandable response, would have a little bit of self-reflection to it rather than just being 'what is wrong with that guy?' I used to do somewhat similar things myself (wear my hair in pig-tails with pink ribbons) in my younger 'fuck-you' stages. I've actually been thinking of breaking out the pig-tails again. :)
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
Has any research been conducted to show this isn't latent/early-stage transgenderism?
I don't know of any studies but in my experience*, they are pretty distinct. Basically, cross-dressers don't identify as a members of the opposite sex, they just like the clothes/accessories - the traditional gender roles are too restrictive for them, whereas transgendered people do.
RE this article: that Dad is awesome. He's teaching his son that gender roles are, at least partly, social constructs (boy, am I really seeing this now that I have both a boy and a girl) and that he supports him 100%. Sure, there are problems when you go out into the world and run up against everyone else who are walking around in their little boxes and who feel threatened by such a challenge to what they know but I'm sure he has, and will continue to do so, talked about this stuff and how to deal with it.
* One of my brothers is transgendered and as such I might have hung out with more transgendered people and crossdressers than most. It's still, of course, anecdotal but it's all I've got, dammit!
