june gloom on 13/7/2013 at 06:16
Except I'm talking about Golden Age Superman --
the source for non-readers' conceptions of Superman -- no longer existing and Fafhrd is coming in telling me yes he does ((
http://bf.math2k.net/userfiles/images/lowdown/2009/jul/bnkal_07_0709.jpg) no he fucking doesn't) blah blah all star superman (which only comic readers will even know about, it was an AU series) blah blah DCU will reboot in one year (what? does he have any proof of this besides the dogs barking in his head?) blah blah it's a bunch of nonsense. He keeps trying to change the subject when the fact of the matter is, All Star Superman and other renditions of Superman
don't matter. I'm talking about
one specific character, and Fafhrd is trying to tell me it's about traits that character shares with later, out-of-main-continuity versions. But those later versions all draw influence from -- hey guess what -- GOLDEN AGE SUPERMAN.
And then he calls me a dumbass because I won't play his game.
The reason I'm making such a big deal about Golden Age Superman is because THAT'S WHERE NON-READERS GET THEIR IDEA OF SUPERMAN FROM. It has nothing to do with whether movies are beholden to comics continuity or not. It has nothing to do with "character traits" which btw Modern Age Superman also has. It has everything to do with Superman's cultural influence, and let's be real: Superman as an icon was around 45
years before the Modern Age continuity began. The Superman most people think of is the Golden Age one. And that character no longer exists, and if you want to be really exacting, except for a single event in which he is killed off for good, he technically hasn't existed in
30 years. The Superman of Man of Steel is based on a more conflicted, unsure and (arguably) realistic idea of Superman -- the one that's been around since 1985.
Fafhrd on 13/7/2013 at 08:11
I'm pretty sure non-readers conception of Superman comes from the Donner films, Lois & Clark, the Animated Series (including Justice League and JLU) and Smallville. The last two of which have a more conflicted, modern Superman, but none of which have the callous, selfish idiot of Man of Steel.
And my idea that DC is going to reboot again in another year or so comes from the fact that they've already rebooted twice this decade, and they built the fucking reset switch into New 52 from the get go with Pandora. Rebooting the universe has consistently been DC's response to losing readers.
june gloom on 13/7/2013 at 08:29
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
that they've already rebooted twice this decade
Flashpoint and...?
And anyway you're not understanding my point. My point, and I've already covered this before but I'll make it simple for you, was that people see Superman as an infallible god-hero, a symbol. Modern Age Supes is/was
not an infallible god-hero, and Man of Steel draws a lot from post-Crisis, Modern Age Superman (I definitely recognized
Last Son as an influence at least as far as how Zod was handled.)
SubJeff on 13/7/2013 at 08:49
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
the callous, selfish idiot of Man of Steel.
Really? You got this from the film?
Interesting.
I really liked the Superman character in this, he seemed less cheesy, more alien, more believable. And really calm in a really cool way. I thought he was one thing they got right.
Fafhrd on 13/7/2013 at 21:14
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Flashpoint and...?
Infinite Crisis. Arguably Final Crisis as well, since that served as a soft reboot for a lot of titles and was supposed to be the entry point to the new Multiverse. Decade as in 'the past ten years' not 'since the third digit of the calendar went up by 1.'
Quote:
Really? You got this from the film?
Let's see: he kisses Lois Lane on the rubble of Metropolis, he's been taught by Jonathan Kent to protect himself over protecting other people (which is BY FAR my biggest problem with the film. Never in a million years would Jonathan Kent say 'maybe' when asked by a young Clark if he should've let a schoolbus full of children die when he could have saved them), he vandalizes some dude's car because that guy was an asshole to him. Yeah, I'd say he's callous and selfish.
And Superman isn't supposed to be alien. Despite his genetics, he is supposed to represent the best of
humanity, because he was raised by a pair of fundamentally decent human beings. The immigrant allegory is pretty central to the character, and it's lost in this version. And he's not supposed to be infallible. That humanity makes him fallible. But he
is always supposed to be trying to do the right thing and helping the most people.
(
http://comicsalliance.com/man-of-steel-moral-superman-review-zack-snyder-david-goyer/) This Comics Alliance piece is probably one of the best things written about what a colossal fuck-up Man of Steel is, character wise.
june gloom on 13/7/2013 at 22:29
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
Infinite Crisis. Arguably Final Crisis as well, since that served as a soft reboot for a lot of titles and was supposed to be the entry point to the new Multiverse. Decade as in 'the past ten years' not 'since the third digit of the calendar went up by 1.'
Y'all need to learn what a reboot is. Infinite Crisis wasn't a reboot -- it merely re-introduced the multiverse and mucked with continuity a little, but all of the post-Crisis on Infinite Earths stuff was
still valid. The continuity that started in 1985 didn't end. And Final Crisis definitely didn't reboot anything either. I suppose next you'll tell me Bloodlines was a reboot.
They've only ever actually done a full reboot twice. Crisis on Infinite Earths was a reboot. The (lack of) continuity ended and a more coordinated (if not always coherent) continuity began. Flashpoint was a reboot. The 1985 continuity ended and a new one started, albeit one very tied to major post-CoIE events.
Things that are not reboots:
Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis, Zero Hour (except for Legion of Superheroes, but that's only because it was still running on pre-CoIE continuity), Legends, DC 1 Million, etc.
SubJeff on 13/7/2013 at 23:49
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
Let's see: he kisses Lois Lane on the rubble of Metropolis
This is callous and selfish?
Quote:
he's been taught by Jonathan Kent to protect himself over protecting other people (which is BY FAR my biggest problem with the film. Never in a million years would Jonathan Kent say 'maybe' when asked by a young Clark if he should've let a schoolbus full of children die when he could have saved them
A. That's Jonathan's pov and Clark clearly isn't happy with it.
B. Given that Clark probably has a future importance that has the potential to affect millions of lives I'd say that the schoolbus is entirely expendable if you bother to look at the bigger picture just a little.
Quote:
he vandalizes some dude's car because that guy was an asshole to him.
Nah bro, this is a really simplistic way of looking at it. He could have killed, crippled or otherwise hurt the guy and the guy wasn't being an asshole to him, he WAS an asshole. He'll have been an asshole to many others and would again and again.
But the day his truck got messed up (covered by insurance, natch) after he was an asshole to a random stranger was probably the day that changed his entire life for the better of those around him and himself.
june gloom on 13/7/2013 at 23:53
Okay, I gotta step in here:
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
But the day his truck got messed up (covered by insurance, natch) after he was an asshole to a random stranger was probably the day that changed his entire life for the better of those around him and himself.
This is a cripplingly naive view of human behavior. Douchebags can't be trained -- punishment only reinforces the behavior, because guys like that are essentially low-level sociopaths.
SubJeff on 14/7/2013 at 00:10
You've seen the exact nature of the vandalism, yes?
I suppose if Darth Vader somersaulted into the parking lot from the Moon and force flung this guy across the carpark he'd still be the same.
Fafhrd on 14/7/2013 at 01:04
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
This is callous and selfish?
Macking with a lady on the graves of thousands that he was partially responsible for? Yes.
