The U.S. and Syria - by Dia
Briareos H on 16/9/2013 at 12:34
Quote Posted by Thirith
I'm not going to be sceptical about any and all evidence, but I'd like to see something more than assertions. Does anyone have any links that go beyond "Well, these people say it was Assad..." to add "... and here's their reasoning why"?
One angle of approach is to follow the munition trail. Interesting things have cropped up, see (
http://brown-moses.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/a-detailed-summary-of-evidence-on.html) this post and the more recent ones. In a few words, some very strange, custom munitions have been used -- with good confidence in the fact that they were fired by the Syrian army -- and if those munitions can be reliably linked to a chemical agent, which seems likely considering their configuration, they'll do a lot to alleviate some of the doubt.
Personally, my gut feeling is that el-Assad's chain of command was indeed responsible for a couple chemical attacks, although limited in scope. But I don't think it's enough reason to start an attack on the regime, especially considering that the different factions in the opposition are getting completely out of hand, with everything from African-style ransomers and kidnappers controlling entire areas of the country, to pseudo-quranic squads made of young idiots with no ideals and nothing better to do, to well-equipped, well-backed and very agressive islamist rebels, and everything in-between. If anything, I'd like to see the western world help the regime instead -- even though it made some pretty stupid moves. That would fall in line with what my own country did in Mali not too long ago, so I can't condone the staunch support of the French governement towards a military intervention against el-Assad instead. Maybe it's just all talk, maybe we're too eager to show off again and sell multirole fighter jets or warships.
Also, I think that the Russian diplomacy has been executing a masterstroke. Carefully defending their own interests, which are very strong in the region, flipping the bird to the U.S. by using negotiations to stretch things out while at the same time pressuring el-Assad into stopping being dumb and bailing him out with obvious returns in the future. Love the old-school politics on display there.
Thirith on 16/9/2013 at 12:55
Thanks for that link, Briareos. I definitely like how the guy is systematic in describing what evidence he has and discussing it from as objective an angle as possible, acknowledging what doubt there is.
faetal on 16/9/2013 at 15:42
The question I can't get past is why Assad would use chemical weapons? It's pretty obvious that the entire world is going to immediately turn on anyone who does so and they haven't been used in a way which would confer any strategic benefit.
LoLion on 16/9/2013 at 16:07
Arguments I heard are that:
1) Assad is actually sure that no intervention is going to come and he is free to do whatever he likes, so why not? (This was actually said by a Syrian anti-Assad activist in an interview for Democracy Now! a couple weeks ago)
2) Assad is simply ruthless/stereotypical mad dictator – he started by shooting into unarmed demonstrators, then bombed towns, so escalation to chemical weapons shouldn’t surprise anyone
3) The attack was done by a rogue element within the army or by accident
That said I think only the third argument has some credibility, since as was already pointed out, there is simply no rational explanation why would Assad use the chemical weapons now on such scale and mostly against civilians, while the UN inspectors were present. This would make some sense if the regime used chemical weapons at the start of the war when it seemed the rebels will take the whole country by a storm in the first few months, but certainly not now when the army started to push the rebels back.
On the other hand the rebels are now in crisis as it seems that all the money, weapons and training they are getting from the gulf monarchies, US and others is not going to be enough. They are the ones who could clearly benefit from such incidents, so I am inclined to believe the whole thing is a false flag event meant to lure the US and whoever joins them to turn the war in the favour of rebels.
icemann on 16/9/2013 at 18:18
The quick answer is him being completely insane. To bomb your own people.
Secondly all the stuff that went on prior to the civil war (killing of civilians then when funerals were held shooting at the people who showed up to those etc). Those types of conditions were practically guaranteed to start one.
Chade on 16/9/2013 at 22:31
Quote Posted by faetal
The peer review system would work by looking at existing research and seeing if it can be reasonably extrapolated from. It's what we could be doing now, but governments ignore because they do what their wealthy donors want instead.
But governments already look at existing research and try to figure out what the best thing to do is ... except in those areas where someone is paying them to do otherwise, or there is strong public opinion to do something else.
I don't really see the link between changing the way we argue about policy and getting rid of corruption. The way to get rid of corruption is to look at what power structures exist and how they can influence each other and make laws directly targeting that. Making people use intellectual arguments rather then emotional arguments is ... well, it's just not much of a barrier to overcome. Think tanks do this every day.
Quote Posted by faetal
Manifestos and campaign promises are not binding in any way, therefore our entire democracy is a sham, because what we are voting for isn't what we are getting.
You assume people choose who to vote for because of campaign promises. Now this isn't my field, but my understanding of political science is that this simply isn't true.
demagogue on 17/9/2013 at 00:33
Re: why Assad would want to use chem weapons. The articles I read explained it like: Assad has been using extreme (conventional) measures to get rebel holds out of the main cities already, and the places where chem weapons were used is where rebels were most entrenched and hardest to dislodge no matter how much conventional force has been thrown at them. So the military logic was pretty obvious on its face.
faetal on 17/9/2013 at 09:02
But how does that apply to where he used them?
faetal on 17/9/2013 at 09:06
Quote Posted by Chade
But governments already look at existing research and try to figure out what the best thing to do is ... except in those areas where someone is paying them to do otherwise, or there is strong public opinion to do something else.
I don't really see the link between changing the way we argue about policy and getting rid of corruption. The way to get rid of corruption is to look at what power structures exist and how they can influence each other and make laws directly targeting that. Making people use intellectual arguments rather then emotional arguments is ... well, it's just not much of a barrier to overcome. Think tanks do this every day.
The difference is that the peer review part is executive. For example when the UK govt. sacked David Nutt because his assessment that most controlled drugs were less harmful than drugs and alcohol would not be permitted in a pure technocracy. Likewise, the privatisation of health care would also not be permitted. It's not about what is done now, it's about what could be done if the mechanism of government were changed to prioritise evidence over opinion and profitability.
Quote:
You assume people choose who to vote for because of campaign promises. Now this isn't my field, but my understanding of political science is that this simply isn't true.
No, people vote for a number of stupid reasons, but the reason we call it democracy is that candidates publish their manifestos, so that is what allows it to be called democracy. I'm just saying that the non-binding nature of these manifestos nullifies even the claim of democracy. It's nothing more than a reality TV show, where the winners get to be the ones carrying out the wishes of the wealthy elite while pretending to serve the public.