They may take away our lives, but they'll never take our freedom! - by Lazarus411
Sombras on 19/10/2012 at 19:57
Where the FUCK is Medlar when we need him?
Lazarus411 on 20/10/2012 at 12:20
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
Basically Cornwall remained celtic when the rest of england was getting invaded by Saxons. This is of course all like 1400 years ago.
[edit]I mean "the land we now call england". England as a unified nation didn't exist until a few centuries later.
Largely myth. Most of the indigenous (Celts were earlier invaders too) stayed in place, and intermarried with the Frangly-Jangly-Saxons, and I assume adopted their culture over the next few hundred of years. It wasn't a complete rout as per traditional view of history.
Muzman on 20/10/2012 at 13:14
Arr boi the grace of monochrome Windows CE we shall prevael. May aurrr Parm Poilots nevar need rechargin'.
Chimpy Chompy on 20/10/2012 at 14:02
Quote Posted by Lazarus411
Largely myth. Most of the indigenous (Celts were earlier invaders too) stayed in place, and intermarried with the Frangly-Jangly-Saxons, and I assume adopted their culture over the next few hundred of years. It wasn't a complete rout as per traditional view of history.
Well I'm not a historian. But Dumnonia seems to be regarded as having been celtic kingdom for a long time after the various saxon ones were established. I guess the difference is a matter of predominant culture and ruling class?
Lazarus411 on 20/10/2012 at 16:21
Basically, yes. Wales and I believe the 'wall' part in Cornwall, means 'foreign land' in early Germanic languages, which means they obviously held out for the longest time against being taken over. Originally those names were interpreted as being an enclave of remaining Britons that hadn't been slaughtered or escaped from Saxon blades, but that is too simplistic a view.
Medlar on 21/10/2012 at 08:27
OK, whilst holed up in Tintagel and before my Parm Poilot died I dug up a good account of Cornish history
What are the constituent nations of Britain? To most of us, the answer to this question will seem obvious: the English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh nations. The idea that Cornwall, too, might have a right to be regarded as a separate nation is one that - outside Cornwall itself - has practically vanished from the popular consciousness. Yet 500 years ago, matters were very different. Throughout the mediaeval and early modern periods, the inhabitants of Cornwall were generally agreed - both by themselves and by their English neighbours - to be a distinctive people or 'race'.
rest of it (
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/cornish_nation_01.shtml) here
Raven on 21/10/2012 at 09:58
Right - late to the party I see. Well then, Scottish independence.... sure it might seem like an international curiosity, or even an insult to the English ("But why would you want to leave us *sniff* *sniff*?...)
Understand that it is neither of this - it is a once in a generation/life time/300 years opportunity for the people of Scotland to (re)gain a sense of political worth/meaning. A chance to give ourselves a kick up the arse, to pull our socks up and to say YES we are in this together, the people of Scotland can work together and make a better Scotland. Yes we want to make a better society, and we can do this on our own. We are not too wee, we are not too poor and we are not too stupid.
It is about Scots in Scotland being responsible for their own actions and decisions.
It is about Scots being able to choose to build a social democratic society, if we want to (or conceivably also if we do not want to). For too long the people of Scotland have either taken a backseat and blamed everything on Westminster… or even worse, got into politics and sold their own people\constituencies down the creek to appease Westminster political masters. Okay, that is very cynical, I do believe most politicians are genuinely not evil – but the alternative is even more telling, they have tried to get into politics, even managed to gain power, only to find that they are completely ineffectual against the majority Westminster interests. Can/will any Scot please tell me the last time their MP was NOT ineffectual, and/or how that situation would not have been made better if that person was answerable only to Scots in a full powered Scottish parliament? Also, how about when your MSP is curtailed because the matter at hand is not devolved, and so is a Westminster matter?
Currently any voice in Scotland is drowned out by our cousins/brothers/friends down south. That is simple logistics. In the last UK general election nearly the whole of Scotland voted Labor, and still got a tory government (this isn't to mention the tory policies now being adopted by the labor party). But even then, independence is not about "currently"... it is about the future. It is about securing the type of future that the people of Scotland want to build for themselves.
The claim for independence has been described as ‘self evident’; this is because it is the natural state of affairs for a nation of people to want to govern themselves. Currently that does not happen in Scotland. Okay, we do have 'control' of education, health and policing (hard fought for and won); but our budget for all this comes as a 'gift' from Westminster - a gift that the rest of the UK apparently really resent and wish reduced. Sure, we give all our taxes and resources to Westminster (it is argued that we give more than our fair share) and then they give us a load of cash back and we spend it... like pocket money (it is also *confusingly* argued that we get back more than our fair share, which is mostly a lie).
The question I want answered is why *should* we be reduced to begging for pocket money, or being told that we are going to get less pocket money if we do not behave (e.g. how dare the people of Scotland vote to prioritize free prescriptions and care for the elder, and even worse have the audacity to balance a budget with these things protected!).
We are more than capable of making all decisions for ourselves.
The people of Scotland need to read the information out there, then they need to examine both sides of the story and truly ask themselves; what sort of future do we want.
Do we really want to keep nuclear missiles parked outside our largest city? (The majority of scots want to be nuclear free).
Do we want to be told that in a time of economic crisis we must make austerity cuts (for conceivably the next 7 years).? It is through this that we are told that we can’t have free prescriptions, education or care for the elderly – and yet the Scottish government, voted in majority by the scottish people HAVE balanced the budget every year to include these things. (Also the Scottish parliament OPPOSITION even vowed to keep these benefits and support the government in this… until a few months later, when they have now gone back on this. The opposition should be holding the Scottish government to account to represent their constituents, not changing policy a year after the election to fit their Westminster masters. The oppositions constituents voted for these benefits, how dare scottish labour change their tune to fit London’s whims.)
Sure, there may be less money around, but you still need to choose what to spend it on. Capital investment is the recognized way out of recession (the policy of the SNP majority government in the devolved Scottish parliament). This is restricted in Scotland from Westminster budgeting. The Westminster Tory/Libiral austerity cuts in Britain are not about 'recession' but about a tory philosophy of decreasing the public sector…. A philosophy that has never been endorsed by the scottish people (as shown by the single figure tory MPs in scotland.... 1) .
Do we want the fundamental principles of the NHS eroded away?
Do we truly believe that the people of Scotland are too poor, too wee and too stupid to build a social democratic society? Or even any society that we as a people choose to?
Or, do you believe there IS such a thing as a social contract between a government and it's people?
Do we believe that we can make an efficient, better scotland when the decisions are made for scotland and in scotland?
If you are at all interested in this matter internationally then please take a look at the following sites. If you a Scot and eligible to vote in the referendum in 2014 then I think it is your democratic duty to look at these sites.
(
http://www.yesscotland.net/questions)
(
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=the%20a-z%20of%20unionist%20myths&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsnetscotland.com%2Findex.php%2Fscottish-opinion%2F4341-a-unionist-lexicon-an-a-z-of-unionist-scare-stories-myths-and-misinformation&ei=5QSEUN6SN9GKhQf3lICgBw&usg=AFQjCNEhiYT68FiBzUuEzLMYelucswzqMQ) - Euro, europe, bank of england and border checks... This site contains counter arguments to each fallacy proclaimed by the scare mongers, the uninformed, the un-ambitious and the down right greedy liars who would hope to keep a people stupid to their potential, silent in there disagreement at the current state and bidding in there behavior as their votes, beliefs and attitude is run rough shod over in the name of Westminster priorities (Such as spending money to privatize the nhs, picking up bills for bogus/bungled privatization of the railways, letting corporations drain the state through tax avoidance while cramping down on those genuinely in need of societies supports, selling off forests, charging 9000 a year for university education – to name a few of the horrific policies that could threaten a scottish way of life. If scotland votes no to independence… how much damage will be done to the devolved parliament’s power? Will we not be effectively saying that we agree what is good enough for england, is good enough for scotland?)
I am happy to be informed, so if union supporters could point me in the direction of counter arguments I would be happy to read them…. so far I have seen…. none.
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https://www.facebook.com/WeAreBetterTogether)
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http://bettertogether.net/pages/the-ve-case)
Seriously, there seems to be nothing on these resources beyond spin and nonsense on why/about how I should place my grandchildren’s future on a 300 year old bum deal, wrapped in an Olympic team GB flag. Also ofcourse, I should not forget the “great wars”, because, hey, war is always something to celebrate?!? :S. This issue for the people of Scotland is far more serious than that.
[Side note: More of the ‘war’ issue; this is the strange idea that "hey Scotland and England were part of the UK when we 'won' the last 2 world wars; so it makes total sense that scotland should stick with england while it's government totally betray the future that people were fighting for" - such as a the nhs and welfare state. There have been reports that state clearly that Scotland’s biggest threat in the next 20-50 years is, if there will ever be an environment resources war between US, China and Russia. In this case we are fucked with or without UK. Ignoring that, being part of the UK just makes us a more appealing target due to the fucked up foreign policies and arms trading that the UK insists upon. (Something which ofcourse Scotland did not vote for, evidenced by the massive and ignored anti war protests in scotland at the time). And ofcourse, if "we" are truly better together, then why do the same arguments not count on a European scale, a single European state with a central European government? Just exactly who is being together better for?]
Vivian on 21/10/2012 at 11:47
Numbers on the Scottish tax/spend thing if you're interested: (
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16477990)
TLDR - does Scotland get more than it pays for? Depends on where you view the proceeds from North Sea oil and gas as coming from, but basically - not really.
Like I said, I honestly don't care whether or not Scotland gets independence. I might do if they decided to close their borders or whatever, but that's not going to happen. However, I also honestly doubt it will make much difference to Scotland either way, other than psychologically.
Raven on 21/10/2012 at 14:31
And here is a little bit of detail about the myth that Scotland is to poor.
Subsidies: Scotland depends upon subsidies from the UK to run our economy. A recent study by the Centre for Economics and Business Research (CEBR) think tank, based on official tax and spending figures, concludes that Scotland's North Sea oil and gas revenues, with other taxes, means it gets no net subsidy from the rest of the UK. And this is based upon shonky Westminster figures, which allocate a notional share of "UK national expenditure" to Scotland even though the money is actually spent in the South East of England. So we're paying for just under 10% of the bloody Olympics.
(
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2100345/Londons-taxes-prop-rest-UK-One-pound-earned-capital-funds-rest-country.html?ito=feeds-newsxml)
But if, like me, your eyes glaze over when you hear talk of balance sheets, budgets and the Barnett Formula, just consider that Westminster could very easily make it clear exactly how much Scotland puts into the Union, and exactly how much we get back in return. After all, it's Westminster which collects all the money and allocates where it goes. We can assume they know who pays what and who gets what.
If Scotland was indeed hopelessly dependent on UK handouts, Westminster would publish all the figures in glorious technicolour and upload videos to YouTube, and there would be a 10 part BBC documentary all about them. This would pretty much kill the independence debate stone dead, as Scots would be able to quantify those so-called Union benefits in precise detail. But instead finding out how much Scotland pays into the Union and how much we get back takes a crack squad of industrial strength accountants on amphetamines. So it's a safe bet that we're not dependent on subsidies from Westminster after all.
This is a good site to stop the nonsence people use instead of having a proper discussions about what we want to do with the future of our people and country.
(
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/4341-a-unionist-lexicon-an-a-z-of-unionist-scare-stories-myths-and-misinformation#unanswered)
